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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 12:46:31 GMT -5
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 12:47:57 GMT -5
A popular blogger and associate professor of journalism and political science at The City University of New York, Beinart’s most recent book “The Crisis of Zionism” criticizes hawkish Jewish leaders in Israel and the United States for their continued support for Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories seized in 1967 during the Six-Day War.
Beinart argued it is these conservative Jewish leaders, not the Palestinians, who are the primary obstacles to peace, thereby making the future of the Jewish state more precarious and less democratic.
“The problem is not that Jews live in the West Bank,” Beinart said. “It is today the West Bank is a place where, contrary to the vision of Israel’s founders, citizenship is ethnically based, where Jews and Palestinians live under a different law.”
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 12:49:04 GMT -5
Beinart said the system, where millions of Palestinians are subjected to the routine humiliations of living under military rule while Jewish settlers receive government housing subsidies and security, will eventually force Israelis to choose between having a Jewish nation or a democratic one.
“By supporting settlement growth you are pushing the Palestinians in the exact direction we don’t want them to go,” he said.
For many Jews, such open criticism of Israel and its leader, pro-settlement Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, borders on heresy, especially coming from a member of their own tribe.
The debate exemplifies a deepening divide among Jewish Americans, roughly represented by organizations like the traditional pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and J Street, a liberal-leaning group that promotes a two-state solution through diplomacy instead of military action.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 29, 2014 13:03:59 GMT -5
Interesting take, so Israel is supposed to absorb Palestinians into their own country? What about the leaders of the Palestinians who say they will destroy Israel, and kill all the Jews? Don't they have a say in all of this?
If the Palestinians do not want to live under military rule then they just need to stop attacking Israel, quite simple really.
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 13:34:48 GMT -5
Interesting take, so Israel is supposed to absorb Palestinians into their own country? What about the leaders of the Palestinians who say they will destroy Israel, and kill all the Jews? Don't they have a say in all of this? If the Palestinians do not want to live under military rule then they just need to stop attacking Israel, quite simple really. I think You assess things wrong. You mention the Palestinian leaders as if you know all of them and that they all say that. I looked it up on the Internet there is a ton of opinions out there that disagrees with your assessment. They do not seem to blame only the Palestinians, as a matter fact they act as if the Palestinians have some righteous grievances. You don't want to see them. Basically, your assessments are putting blinders on you. I see both sides. Personally if I had my way, I would prefer the more modern Israel influence to spread to the Middle East. I have no more patience for religious fanatics then you probably do. But that's another issue. |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 13:37:18 GMT -5
Netanyahu is part of the problem. He's a hawk. Hawks cause trouble.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 29, 2014 14:59:14 GMT -5
Interesting take, so Israel is supposed to absorb Palestinians into their own country? What about the leaders of the Palestinians who say they will destroy Israel, and kill all the Jews? Don't they have a say in all of this? If the Palestinians do not want to live under military rule then they just need to stop attacking Israel, quite simple really. I think You assess things wrong. You mention the Palestinian leaders as if you know all of them and that they all say that. I looked it up on the Internet there is a ton of opinions out there that disagrees with your assessment. They do not seem to blame only the Palestinians, as a matter fact they act as if the Palestinians have some righteous grievances. You don't want to see them. Basically, your assessments are putting blinders on you. I see both sides. Personally if I had my way, I would prefer the more modern Israel influence to spread to the Middle East. I have no more patience for religious fanatics then you probably do. But that's another issue. Maybe I do have blinders on, but frankly until the Palestinian citizens, and their leaders start acting civilized then to me they have no moral ground to stand on. My point is that Palestine is not part of Israel, so why should the Palestinians and Israelis be treated the same legally? They do after all have different laws. To the thread title, it sounds like he was happy to go to a venue where he could sell his books, if his ideas are not popular with one group then that group should be able to have him not speak. Plenty of conservative speakers get kicked out of speaking engagements at universities, of course universities are supposed to be open to diverse opinions. |
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 29, 2014 14:59:44 GMT -5
Netanyahu is part of the problem. He's a hawk. Hawks cause trouble. And doves get eaten, welcome to the way of the world.  |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 15:11:33 GMT -5
Netanyahu is part of the problem. He's a hawk. Hawks cause trouble. And doves get eaten, welcome to the way of the world. Nope. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jul 29, 2014 15:15:42 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible.
The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs.
The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen.
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 15:30:47 GMT -5
I think You assess things wrong. You mention the Palestinian leaders as if you know all of them and that they all say that. I looked it up on the Internet there is a ton of opinions out there that disagrees with your assessment. They do not seem to blame only the Palestinians, as a matter fact they act as if the Palestinians have some righteous grievances. You don't want to see them. Basically, your assessments are putting blinders on you. I see both sides. Personally if I had my way, I would prefer the more modern Israel influence to spread to the Middle East. I have no more patience for religious fanatics then you probably do. But that's another issue. Maybe I do have blinders on, but frankly until the Palestinian citizens, and their leaders start acting civilized then to me they have no moral ground to stand on. My point is that Palestine is not part of Israel, so why should the Palestinians and Israelis be treated the same legally? They do after all have different laws. To the thread title, it sounds like he was happy to go to a venue where he could sell his books, if his ideas are not popular with one group then that group should be able to have him not speak. Plenty of conservative speakers get kicked out of speaking engagements at universities, of course universities are supposed to be open to diverse opinions. Someone has to take the high road. Some have unrealistic ideas of their vision for the future, also . Neither side is going anywhere. |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 15:31:25 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible. The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs. The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen. That's good. I like that idea |
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 29, 2014 15:42:07 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible. The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs. The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen. That's good. I like that idea I do to, but it won't happen. We should also cut off all funding for the UN as well. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jul 29, 2014 15:50:42 GMT -5
That's good. I like that idea I do to, but it won't happen. We should also cut off all funding for the UN as well. We kinda do. We're seriously in arrears on dues. |
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Post by vosa on Jul 29, 2014 16:34:04 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible. The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs. The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen. Cutting off aid to both sides is tantamount to saying there is no difference between the two sides. Do you think there is no difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians? |
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 29, 2014 17:26:23 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible. The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs. The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen. Cutting off aid to both sides is tantamount to saying there is no difference between the two sides. Do you think there is no difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Does it matter than there is a difference? Do we need to pay our tax dollars for every country out there, they don't even vote our way in the UN. Frankly I would want better bang for our bucks. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 17:51:10 GMT -5
You're never going to have a democracy if you have significant religious involvement in government; democracy and theocracy are incompatible. The Arabs lost that war. When you lose a war, you often lose land. Their answer is to lob rockets into Israel, hoping to intimidate her into giving them back what they strangely think is still theirs. The United States should simply cut off all aid to any nation in that area of the world, and let whatever happens, happen. If the United States had done that 40 years ago, there wouldn't be the problem that there is today and we would already have the two state solution... or no Israel. Either outcome would be better than what we have now. |
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 29, 2014 18:07:02 GMT -5
lostislamichistory.com/how-the-british-divided-up-the-arab-world/Meh, those crazy lost empires! While there are many different factors leading to this, the role that the British played in this was far greater than any other player in the region. Three separate agreements made conflicting promises that the British had to stand by. The result was a political mess that divided up a large part of the Muslim world. Maybe Florence should have stayed OUT of Arabia? 
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jul 29, 2014 18:11:40 GMT -5
Cutting off aid to both sides is tantamount to saying there is no difference between the two sides. Do you think there is no difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians? No, there's a difference. The Israelis produce much of value, the Palestinians little or nothing of value. But I don't agree with your axiom. Another way to interpret it is this: I'm tired of them being unable to resolve their problems peacefully, and doubly tired of my tax dollars enabling their jumped-up schoolyard squabble. Cut them off and let them sort it out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 18:15:19 GMT -5
The US has had far more to do with the feck-up in the ME than all the rest of the world put together. It has supplied and enabled the cancer that is Israel. It cracks me up when I hear Americans bleat, "why does everyone hate us". Er, how fecking stupid can some idiots be?
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 29, 2014 19:35:33 GMT -5
The US has had far more to do with the feck-up in the ME than all the rest of the world put together. It has supplied and enabled the cancer that is Israel. It cracks me up when I hear Americans bleat, "why does everyone hate us". Er, how fecking stupid can some idiots be? YOU can't handle the truth!  |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 20:17:40 GMT -5
That's good. I like that idea I do to, but it won't happen. We should also cut off all funding for the UN as well. maybe. Less important . |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 20:19:15 GMT -5
Cutting off aid to both sides is tantamount to saying there is no difference between the two sides. Do you think there is no difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians? No, there's a difference. The Israelis produce much of value, the Palestinians little or nothing of value. But I don't agree with your axiom. Another way to interpret it is this: I'm tired of them being unable to resolve their problems peacefully, and doubly tired of my tax dollars enabling their jumped-up schoolyard squabble. Cut them off and let them sort it out. I don't judge people by what they produce. Cut them off but it could get ugly |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 20:19:52 GMT -5
lostislamichistory.com/how-the-british-divided-up-the-arab-world/Meh, those crazy lost empires! While there are many different factors leading to this, the role that the British played in this was far greater than any other player in the region. Three separate agreements made conflicting promises that the British had to stand by. The result was a political mess that divided up a large part of the Muslim world. Maybe Florence should have stayed OUT of Arabia? Stupid white people |
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Post by Moses on Jul 29, 2014 20:20:29 GMT -5
Cutting off aid to both sides is tantamount to saying there is no difference between the two sides. Do you think there is no difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Does it matter than there is a difference? Do we need to pay our tax dollars for every country out there, they don't even vote our way in the UN. Frankly I would want better bang for our bucks. Mexico! |
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