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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 26, 2015 8:25:39 GMT -5
Alexis Tsipras' Syriza party won a "snap election" yesterday (not sure what that is), which puts leftists in tentative control of Greece. They don't control a majority, but they control enough that coalition giving them an effective majority is within reach. Tsipras promises to end "five years of humiliation and suffering", which is how he describes conditions imposed on Greece by her creditors, in return for loans to bail her out of economic disaster. It is likely that he will be at odds with German chancellor Merkel. Whether he intends to default of Greece's remaining debt or push for different policies is unclear. But he will probably find an ally in fellow leftist (socialist, really) Hollande of France. They contend that "policies of austerity" have failed to nurture growth. Greece's bailout deal with the Eurozone ends 2/28, and how the Tsipras government handles that will be instructive. He's got to find a way to keep money flowing without alienating those who elected him, a real challenge when the people who hold the purse strings support the austerity policies he rejects. Article
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Post by rentedmule on Jan 26, 2015 8:36:47 GMT -5
Folk who champion consumption with borrowed money that will not be repaid can always win elections. How is our debt doing? Does anyone on this board actually believe their grand daughter is going to pay off your debts? English Law once established a very essential policy enabling their society to flourish - the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son. The Greeks wish to spare their children but instead visit their sins upon the sons of their German cousins.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 10:43:26 GMT -5
Folk who champion consumption with borrowed money that will not be repaid can always win elections. How is our debt doing? Does anyone on this board actually believe their grand daughter is going to pay off your debts? English Law once established a very essential policy enabling their society to flourish - the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son. The Greeks wish to spare their children but instead visit their sins upon the sons of their German cousins. Indeed, you make a valid point. I wonder how the American populace would handle it if such swingeing conditions of austerity were made on them until their own debt was fully repaid? It is very easy to live it large on other people's money and it seems just as easy to criticise others for doing the same as oneself.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 26, 2015 10:49:09 GMT -5
Indeed, you make a valid point. I wonder how the American populace would handle it if such swingeing conditions of austerity were made on them until their own debt was fully repaid? It is very easy to live it large on other people's money and it seems just as easy to criticise others for doing the same as oneself. If the Greeks agreed to conditions in return for money, that's a contract they're bound to honor. If they default their risk shoots up and they may have trouble getting more money. The Greek people will like that far less. Merkel's Germans are the economic powerhouse of Europe right now. Those people get to make the lending decisions. I have argued for more austerity over here, but the gimme class spoke louder and we got Obama. No, it's not a political party thing: George W. Bush is who hung that millstone around our neck. Obama is just who didn't take the correct measures to solve it. We're experiencing a recovery in spite of him, not because of him, regardless of what his supporters believe. A key difference: the United States government is perceived as free of corruption (something I do not believe is true), whereas the Greek government is perceived as rife with it (can't say if that's true). Careless fiscal policy, which the Greeks also had in the run-up to their problems, increases risk and decreases the inclination to lend. A chief problem in Greece is similar to problems elsewhere: those who create the problems are not those called on to suffer in their solution. Like Obama, Tsipras positioned himself to exploit the discontent that creates.
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Post by redleg on Jan 26, 2015 11:56:57 GMT -5
Folk who champion consumption with borrowed money that will not be repaid can always win elections. How is our debt doing? Does anyone on this board actually believe their grand daughter is going to pay off your debts? English Law once established a very essential policy enabling their society to flourish - the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son. The Greeks wish to spare their children but instead visit their sins upon the sons of their German cousins. Indeed, you make a valid point. I wonder how the American populace would handle it if such swingeing conditions of austerity were made on them until their own debt was fully repaid? It is very easy to live it large on other people's money and it seems just as easy to criticise others for doing the same as oneself. There is a rather major difference. At least until this regime, and to a much lesser extent Bush's, the average American didn't rely on the government for their daily bread as they do so much in Europe. Here, the government isn't designed to babysit the citizen from cradle to grave, as Europe's is. The Left has perverted our government to the point that we are becoming Europe, because the Left loves subjugation and servitude, as long as it's not THEM being subjugated and serving. As long as it's not THEIR money being used for welfare.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 12:21:33 GMT -5
Where do people get these idiotic broad brush generalisations of Europe from? Sad to see such ignorance being perpetuated.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 26, 2015 14:19:25 GMT -5
Where do people get these idiotic broad brush generalisations of Europe from? Sad to see such ignorance being perpetuated. Which of my comments was a broad brush generalization?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 14:45:08 GMT -5
Where do people get these idiotic broad brush generalisations of Europe from? Sad to see such ignorance being perpetuated. Which of my comments was a broad brush generalization? Not wishing to narrow it down too much, for fear of bad boy points, my post was not directed at you.
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Post by rentedmule on Jan 26, 2015 17:00:14 GMT -5
Folk who champion consumption with borrowed money that will not be repaid can always win elections. How is our debt doing? Does anyone on this board actually believe their grand daughter is going to pay off your debts? English Law once established a very essential policy enabling their society to flourish - the sins of the father should not be visited upon the son. The Greeks wish to spare their children but instead visit their sins upon the sons of their German cousins. Indeed, you make a valid point. I wonder how the American populace would handle it if such swingeing conditions of austerity were made on them until their own debt was fully repaid? It is very easy to live it large on other people's money and it seems just as easy to criticise others for doing the same as oneself. I must agree! I (and others) can easily explain why America has a virtual 'blank' check regarding credit (where others do not) but your point is valid.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 26, 2015 17:04:45 GMT -5
Which of my comments was a broad brush generalization? Not wishing to narrow it down too much, for fear of bad boy points, my post was not directed at you. Thanks. My mistake then.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 31, 2015 12:01:51 GMT -5
Looks like Merkel and the ECB are taking a hard line. They say the financial support for the banks ends unless Greece agrees to renew its bailout package. The Greek government says it will not renew the bailout package or cooperate with the inspectors overseeing it. Interesting times ahead for Greece. Who will blink first? Greece, I believe, needs Europe far more than Europe needs Greece.
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Post by redleg on Jan 31, 2015 12:41:27 GMT -5
Where do people get these idiotic broad brush generalisations of Europe from? Sad to see such ignorance being perpetuated. Define and explain each instance of "ignorance" in the post to which you are replying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 15:58:22 GMT -5
Where do people get these idiotic broad brush generalisations of Europe from? Sad to see such ignorance being perpetuated. Define and explain each instance of "ignorance" in the post to which you are replying. Go boil your head...
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Post by redleg on Jan 31, 2015 16:54:07 GMT -5
Define and explain each instance of "ignorance" in the post to which you are replying. Go boil your head... Just as I suspected, I'm absolutely correct, you know it, but can't allow the truth to go unchallenged.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 31, 2015 18:18:05 GMT -5
No flame wars, please. Thanks.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Feb 1, 2015 12:11:16 GMT -5
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Post by rentedmule on Feb 1, 2015 14:43:20 GMT -5
Is a society in the condition of Greece actually in the position of a negotiator or a beggar?
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Post by Evil Yoda on Feb 1, 2015 15:37:03 GMT -5
Is a society in the condition of Greece actually in the position of a negotiator or a beggar? The second, of course. Tsipras sold himself to Greece as someone who could rectify that. The Greek people bought it. Why wouldn't they? The people suffering from austerity measures are not the people who broke their economy. THOSE people got rich and will stay rich. From time to time, the very greedy must be reminded of the same thing that tyrants must be reminded of. That people won't take it forever. They'll take it a long time because as we know there are basically two sorts of people in the world: predators, and prey. As in most ecosystems prey far outnumbers predators and is far weaker. But a difference between human sociology and the usual rules that govern ecosystems is that the prey can become the predator. It battles and destroys those who preyed upon it, takes their place, and as a first order of business ensures that the rest of the prey can't do what they just did. But over time they forget what it was like to be prey, or are succeeded by those who never knew, and the cycle repeats.
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Post by rentedmule on Feb 2, 2015 9:10:59 GMT -5
Is a society in the condition of Greece actually in the position of a negotiator or a beggar? The second, of course. Tsipras sold himself to Greece as someone who could rectify that. The Greek people bought it. Why wouldn't they? The people suffering from austerity measures are not the people who broke their economy. THOSE people got rich and will stay rich.From time to time, the very greedy must be reminded of the same thing that tyrants must be reminded of. That people won't take it forever. They'll take it a long time because as we know there are basically two sorts of people in the world: predators, and prey. As in most ecosystems prey far outnumbers predators and is far weaker. But a difference between human sociology and the usual rules that govern ecosystems is that the prey can become the predator. It battles and destroys those who preyed upon it, takes their place, and as a first order of business ensures that the rest of the prey can't do what they just did. But over time they forget what it was like to be prey, or are succeeded by those who never knew, and the cycle repeats. "The Greek people who bought it" are their own villain. A society of folk who DO NOT pay taxes and whose only interest in government is in supporting those who will broker deals with evil rich people in order to sustain the pathetic, selfish Greek society that they themselves created. ALL DEBTS WILL BE PAID. That sir is an economic absolute. Credit and lending is not a particularly difficult subject to understand! Those who take just a little effort to accept reality can be prosperous and useful to others. Those who resist and prefer to be selfish are doomed to courting politicians who claim to have mastered alchemy. We all have to hitch our carts to something! The Greeks have chosen.
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Post by rentedmule on Feb 3, 2015 9:46:36 GMT -5
A case for dumping the Euro and taking your chances with classic economics: www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-02/greece-just-blew-empires-death-star-debt"Classical Capitalism is very clear on what should happen to lenders who ignored risk management; they get destroyed. As imprudently issued loans default, the losses pile up and the lender become insolvent. At that point, Capitalism kicks in and the management is fired, the stock goes to zero, the lender's assets are auctioned off and the creditors are issued whatever remains after wages, taxes, accounts payable, etc. are paid. There's nothing complicated about it: Capitalism requires the discipline of losses being taken by those responsible, the firing of incompetents and the destruction of imprudent lenders."
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Post by rocketwolf on Feb 3, 2015 12:35:25 GMT -5
Indeed, you make a valid point. I wonder how the American populace would handle it if such swingeing conditions of austerity were made on them until their own debt was fully repaid? It is very easy to live it large on other people's money and it seems just as easy to criticise others for doing the same as oneself. If the Greeks agreed to conditions in return for money, that's a contract they're bound to honor. If they default their risk shoots up and they may have trouble getting more money. The Greek people will like that far less. Merkel's Germans are the economic powerhouse of Europe right now. Those people get to make the lending decisions. I have argued for more austerity over here, but the gimme class spoke louder and we got Obama. No, it's not a political party thing: George W. Bush is who hung that millstone around our neck. Obama is just who didn't take the correct measures to solve it. We're experiencing a recovery in spite of him, not because of him, regardless of what his supporters believe.A key difference: the United States government is perceived as free of corruption (something I do not believe is true), whereas the Greek government is perceived as rife with it (can't say if that's true). Careless fiscal policy, which the Greeks also had in the run-up to their problems, increases risk and decreases the inclination to lend. A chief problem in Greece is similar to problems elsewhere: those who create the problems are not those called on to suffer in their solution. Like Obama, Tsipras positioned himself to exploit the discontent that creates. Obumble is now trying to take credit for lower gas prices after he and his people lied to us that drilling was bad and would not HELP to reduce prices. Any other country not as strong as ours he would have destroyed instead of delaying the recovery for 4 to 5 years .
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Post by Evil Yoda on Feb 4, 2015 20:52:27 GMT -5
The ECB has decided to revoke an agreement that Greek banks could use Greek government debt as collateral for loans. Doubtless a move to pressure Tsipras.
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Post by rentedmule on Feb 6, 2015 7:59:17 GMT -5
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Post by Evil Yoda on Feb 6, 2015 8:53:44 GMT -5
He objected to Russia's involvement in Ukraine? I think we can safely conclude where some of Syriza's funding comes from, and where Tsipras believes more money will come from if the ECB decides not to extend him credit. The Greeks used to be so much smarter than this.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Feb 8, 2015 16:22:04 GMT -5
He has rejected the bailout as a failure. And plans to seek World War II reparations from Germany. Seems that Greece is now in Putin's back pocket. Article
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