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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 15, 2015 17:19:08 GMT -5
Basically, thanks to having gone through bankruptcy they will be able to evade the consequences of their bad behavior. GM argued that it was not liable for ignition switch claims prior to 2009, when it emerged from bankruptcy. Those claimants will have to sue "Old GM", a company mostly composed of toxic assets "New GM" shed during its reorganization. It's good to be friends with the guy at 1600, isn't it?  |
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 15, 2015 17:24:16 GMT -5
The thing that's so obnoxious about this for me is that the whole point of the bailout was to keep GM from going bust. So the taxpayers put up all that money, they went bankrupt anyway (and the unions went to the head of the line), and now they're trying to get out of responsibility for defects.
If I didn't have a GM vehicle assigned to me at work, I'd never drive one.
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Post by rocketwolf on Apr 15, 2015 17:31:44 GMT -5
Ill never buy another GM product
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 15, 2015 17:41:53 GMT -5
Ill never buy another GM product I would never buy one before this happened. The build quality has been crap for a long time - and no doubt part of the reason they failed. I've driven them for work - including the recalled Cobalts. They're actually not bad to drive, and they're comfortable for what they are. But the materials they use are third rate, and they fall apart quickly. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 15, 2015 21:28:22 GMT -5
I would never buy one before this happened. The build quality has been crap for a long time - and no doubt part of the reason they failed. I've driven them for work - including the recalled Cobalts. They're actually not bad to drive, and they're comfortable for what they are. But the materials they use are third rate, and they fall apart quickly. This is the big knock against American car makers: they want to make money on repairs and replacement, so they don't build very good products. And people went elsewhere, and then they whined for government bailouts. Additionally they suffered from poor vision: when fuel prices went up and stayed there for years, people actually, sluggishly, began looking for vehicles with better fuel efficiency, but the backwards looking American automakers were utterly unprepared. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 15, 2015 21:38:47 GMT -5
I thought Republicans hated lawsuits? Do y'all suddenly like them because the unions own a big chunk of the company?
Me, I see them as on of the few defenses individuals have against corporate wrongdoing, some of which is revealed almost daily. Since the government levies what amount to slap-on-the-wrist fines and never sends any of the decision makers to jail.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 15, 2015 21:57:19 GMT -5
I would never buy one before this happened. The build quality has been crap for a long time - and no doubt part of the reason they failed. I've driven them for work - including the recalled Cobalts. They're actually not bad to drive, and they're comfortable for what they are. But the materials they use are third rate, and they fall apart quickly. This is the big knock against American car makers: they want to make money on repairs and replacement, so they don't build very good products. And people went elsewhere, and then they whined for government bailouts. Additionally they suffered from poor vision: when fuel prices went up and stayed there for years, people actually, sluggishly, began looking for vehicles with better fuel efficiency, but the backwards looking American automakers were utterly unprepared. Quality is much better at Ford. It's one of the reasons they took a pass on the bailout. |
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 16, 2015 6:12:14 GMT -5
This is the big knock against American car makers: they want to make money on repairs and replacement, so they don't build very good products. And people went elsewhere, and then they whined for government bailouts. Additionally they suffered from poor vision: when fuel prices went up and stayed there for years, people actually, sluggishly, began looking for vehicles with better fuel efficiency, but the backwards looking American automakers were utterly unprepared. Quality is much better at Ford. It's one of the reasons they took a pass on the bailout. I've owned both since long before you were born... my first Chevy was a '55... my first Ford was a '56... still own both... not that much difference between 'em... but for my $$$... I'll take the Chevy... |
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Post by rocketwolf on Apr 16, 2015 6:41:26 GMT -5
I thought Republicans hated lawsuits? Do y'all suddenly like them because the unions own a big chunk of the company? Me, I see them as on of the few defenses individuals have against corporate wrongdoing, some of which is revealed almost daily. Since the government levies what amount to slap-on-the-wrist fines and never sends any of the decision makers to jail. I think unions owning part or all of a company is a good thing. I don't hate lawsuits either. The reason the union at GM is on my *hit list is that they got put ahead of the bond holders, which is flat wrong. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 16, 2015 8:25:19 GMT -5
I've owned both since long before you were born... my first Chevy was a '55... my first Ford was a '56... still own both... not that much difference between 'em... Yeah, but we're not talking about rusting hulks sitting on cinder blocks in the tall grass behind your house! (C'mon, man, you put that on a tee for me!) but for my $$$... I'll take the Chevy... I had a Mazda in college (I was a commuter) and that served me faithfully and well into my work years before the body finally started rotting away. So I bought a Ford, 'cause I wanted to support American auto makers. I was young and dumb then. What. A. Mistake. Always needed repairs and I finally bought the Honda when I found out the Ford, still shy of 100K, would need a repair that involved removing the engine. The car I replaced it with? A Japanese machine that I bought in the middle 90s and am still driving today. I've had to repair it, and some of them have been expensive, but it still looks pretty good and runs well. It's closing on 200K. I doubt any American car ever reaches 200K. Unless it's how much money you have to spend at the shop! American car makers lost me when I realized they just did not care about quality. I'm told that's changed, but short of the expensive experiment of buying one, I can't verify that. And it's not the assembly guys or even the engineers. It's the decision makers at the top responsible for that. As recently as GM's failure we know those guys can't read their customers. And if you can't or won't do that, how do you know they want quality? |
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 16, 2015 8:55:28 GMT -5
I've owned both since long before you were born... my first Chevy was a '55... my first Ford was a '56... still own both... not that much difference between 'em... Yeah, but we're not talking about rusting hulks sitting on cinder blocks in the tall grass behind your house! (C'mon, man, you put that on a tee for me!) but for my $$$... I'll take the Chevy... I had a Mazda in college (I was a commuter) and that served me faithfully and well into my work years before the body finally started rotting away. So I bought a Ford, 'cause I wanted to support American auto makers. I was young and dumb then. What. A. Mistake. Always needed repairs and I finally bought the Honda when I found out the Ford, still shy of 100K, would need a repair that involved removing the engine. The car I replaced it with? A Japanese machine that I bought in the middle 90s and am still driving today. I've had to repair it, and some of them have been expensive, but it still looks pretty good and runs well. It's closing on 200K. I doubt any American car ever reaches 200K. Unless it's how much money you have to spend at the shop! American car makers lost me when I realized they just did not care about quality. I'm told that's changed, but short of the expensive experiment of buying one, I can't verify that. And it's not the assembly guys or even the engineers. It's the decision makers at the top responsible for that. As recently as GM's failure we know those guys can't read their customers. And if you can't or won't do that, how do you know they want quality? Yeah... but I started a long time ago... (those were not that old at the time)... the only one I ever bought that was on cinder blocks (with no wheels)... was a '49 Plymouth Coupe... fully restored it... jet black with blue carpet inside... won some nice strophes with it... sporting it's deep dish chrome reverse wheels... turned some heads on the street too...  The '55 Chevy was bad on the rust... the Ford, not so much... GM was focused too much on making big, gas guzzlers to survive as they were going... had to completely re-tool... now that gasoline is back down to a more reasonable price, I hope they aren't fool enough to go back to that plan... |
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 16, 2015 9:12:16 GMT -5
I've owned both since long before you were born... my first Chevy was a '55... my first Ford was a '56... still own both... not that much difference between 'em... Yeah, but we're not talking about rusting hulks sitting on cinder blocks in the tall grass behind your house! (C'mon, man, you put that on a tee for me!) but for my $$$... I'll take the Chevy... I had a Mazda in college (I was a commuter) and that served me faithfully and well into my work years before the body finally started rotting away. So I bought a Ford, 'cause I wanted to support American auto makers. I was young and dumb then. What. A. Mistake. Always needed repairs and I finally bought the Honda when I found out the Ford, still shy of 100K, would need a repair that involved removing the engine. The car I replaced it with? A Japanese machine that I bought in the middle 90s and am still driving today. I've had to repair it, and some of them have been expensive, but it still looks pretty good and runs well. It's closing on 200K. I doubt any American car ever reaches 200K. Unless it's how much money you have to spend at the shop! American car makers lost me when I realized they just did not care about quality. I'm told that's changed, but short of the expensive experiment of buying one, I can't verify that. And it's not the assembly guys or even the engineers. It's the decision makers at the top responsible for that. As recently as GM's failure we know those guys can't read their customers. And if you can't or won't do that, how do you know they want quality? I still drive a 1991 Mercury Capri. The odometer currently reads 296,000. I'll post a photo later if you'd like to see the American car that's within shouting distance of 300k. It has gone through a couple radiators over the last 24 years. And a few alternators. And a water pump. I consider this perfectly normal, and wonder if your Ford problem was a dishonest mechanic problem. I suppose, technically, it's Austrailian, but then there really isn't such a thing as an Anerican car anymore. Or for that matter, a Japanese car. |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 16, 2015 9:33:01 GMT -5
GM was focused too much on making big, gas guzzlers to survive as they were going... had to completely re-tool... now that gasoline is back down to a more reasonable price, I hope they aren't fool enough to go back to that plan... You know they will, though. Because for whatever reason men don't want to drive minivans, nobody wants to drive station wagons, but families need machines that can move kids hither and yon. Hell, even around here parents drive their kids a block to the school bus stops! |
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Post by Evil Yoda on Apr 16, 2015 9:41:19 GMT -5
I still drive a 1991 Mercury Capri. The odometer currently reads 296,000. I'll post a photo later if you'd like to see the American car that's within shouting distance of 300k. It has gone through a couple radiators over the last 24 years. And a few alternators. And a water pump. I consider this perfectly normal, and wonder if your Ford problem was a dishonest mechanic problem. I suppose, technically, it's Austrailian, but then there really isn't such a thing as an Anerican car anymore. Or for that matter, a Japanese car. Glad to hear it. The repairs you cite aren't unreasonable for a car of that age. I've placed a radiator, a timing belt & water pump (around 100K, per scheduled recommendation). Alternator's still going strong for now. Also had to replace a wheel bearing and the air conditioning compressor. All things that are part of normal wear and tear. Plus the usual oil changes, coolant changes, a pair of mufflers. What's not normal wear and tear is when they have to pull the engine to replace the front seal to stop a bad oil leak circa 90K. Two dealers told me that was the only way to do it. That part should last hundreds of thousands of miles precisely because the cost of fixing it is so high. And that's just the worst of the problems, not the sum of them. That machine was garbage. It was a Ford; perhaps Mercury made better machines. Between the K-cars, GM's managerial short-sightedness, my experiences with a Ford and the fact that Deming had to go to Japan to find people actually interested in producing quality products, American automakers trained me not to believe what they say. It may be that some Japanese car makers have forgotten the lessons of quality they once knew, since they're having recall problems of their own with air bags and that mysterious Toyota stopping issue that might have been a design problem or a user error. We'll see. The fact that Americans who could afford to do so paid *more* for Japanese machines should have told the American automakers' management something, but they were oblivious. It's real difficult to trust their judgement. |
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Post by shutout on Apr 16, 2015 11:07:41 GMT -5
We have three Jeeps reach far over 200k mikes with routine maintenance. One went over 300k. Never replaced a transmission, or had the motor apart. And teenage boys were driving them for large segments of the vehicle life.
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 16, 2015 13:12:29 GMT -5
I still drive a 1991 Mercury Capri. The odometer currently reads 296,000. I'll post a photo later if you'd like to see the American car that's within shouting distance of 300k. It has gone through a couple radiators over the last 24 years. And a few alternators. And a water pump. I consider this perfectly normal, and wonder if your Ford problem was a dishonest mechanic problem. I suppose, technically, it's Austrailian, but then there really isn't such a thing as an Anerican car anymore. Or for that matter, a Japanese car. Glad to hear it. The repairs you cite aren't unreasonable for a car of that age. I've placed a radiator, a timing belt & water pump (around 100K, per scheduled recommendation). Alternator's still going strong for now. Also had to replace a wheel bearing and the air conditioning compressor. All things that are part of normal wear and tear. Plus the usual oil changes, coolant changes, a pair of mufflers. What's not normal wear and tear is when they have to pull the engine to replace the front seal to stop a bad oil leak circa 90K. Two dealers told me that was the only way to do it. That part should last hundreds of thousands of miles precisely because the cost of fixing it is so high. And that's just the worst of the problems, not the sum of them. That machine was garbage. It was a Ford; perhaps Mercury made better machines. Between the K-cars, GM's managerial short-sightedness, my experiences with a Ford and the fact that Deming had to go to Japan to find people actually interested in producing quality products, American automakers trained me not to believe what they say. It may be that some Japanese car makers have forgotten the lessons of quality they once knew, since they're having recall problems of their own with air bags and that mysterious Toyota stopping issue that might have been a design problem or a user error. We'll see. The fact that Americans who could afford to do so paid *more* for Japanese machines should have told the American automakers' management something, but they were oblivious. It's real difficult to trust their judgement. I had a front seal go on a 1990 Lincoln Towncar a few years ago. It was at about 160,000. As I recall, it wasn't a terribly costly repair. If I remember, the mechanic did have to lift the engine, but they've got the tools to do that. I don't remember what I paid. But I'm thinking it was under $1,000. That car ended up getting slammed by a drunk in a parking garage, and got scrapped shortly thereafter. Otherwise it would be over 200,000 by now as well. It was around 185,000 when it got hit. Of course it had the old Ford 302 in it. Some of these newer engines are harder to work on. |
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 16, 2015 16:58:51 GMT -5
GM was focused too much on making big, gas guzzlers to survive as they were going... had to completely re-tool... now that gasoline is back down to a more reasonable price, I hope they aren't fool enough to go back to that plan... You know they will, though. Because for whatever reason men don't want to drive minivans, nobody wants to drive station wagons, but families need machines that can move kids hither and yon. Hell, even around here parents drive their kids a block to the school bus stops! What I don't understand is folks who own and drive those Hummers... and a lot of those drivers are... women... I guess it makes them feel more powerful... |
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Post by Ranger John on Apr 16, 2015 20:38:05 GMT -5
GM was focused too much on making big, gas guzzlers to survive as they were going... had to completely re-tool... now that gasoline is back down to a more reasonable price, I hope they aren't fool enough to go back to that plan... You know they will, though. Because for whatever reason men don't want to drive minivans, nobody wants to drive station wagons, but families need machines that can move kids hither and yon. Hell, even around here parents drive their kids a block to the school bus stops! Honestly, I think anyone who goes into a car dealership looking to buy a minivan for family hauling ought to have their license taken away because they clearly know NOTHING about cars. If you've got a couple kids, a nice medium or full-sized sedan is more than adequate. More than 2 kids, you want a station wagon. I'd MUCH prefer a station wagon to a minivan. It's likely to perform better and get better gas mileage. If you've just got to have a bigger vehicle, at least if you get a halfway decent SUV, it'll have some off-road capability. Mini-vans are useful for moving a lot of people or things around. Most families just don't have a need for 6-7 seats, and all the other compromises that go into minivans to get that extra seating make them crap to drive. So minivans are for people like plumbers, electricians or taxi services. Not families. |
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Post by shutout on Apr 16, 2015 22:59:39 GMT -5
I have good service from every Ford truck I have owned. Sold one this winter with 209k on the clock. Some rust but still going. 4wd still worked, AC was cold, trans still shifted. I drive a 1995 F-250 4x4 power stroke almost everty day. No problems other than maintenance associated with a 20 year old truck.
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Post by shutout on Apr 16, 2015 23:14:32 GMT -5
You know they will, though. Because for whatever reason men don't want to drive minivans, nobody wants to drive station wagons, but families need machines that can move kids hither and yon. Hell, even around here parents drive their kids a block to the school bus stops! What I don't understand is folks who own and drive those Hummers... and a lot of those drivers are... women... I guess it makes them feel more powerful... Why do people restore an old Plymouth? My aunt drives a hummer my uncle bought it, before he died. They have a small farm in West Virginia, and the lane to their place is challenging in the winter. Also their property in OBX is easier to access with four wheel drive. If not a hummer it would be some other SUV. |
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 17, 2015 5:54:11 GMT -5
Why did I get an old Plymouth?... my granddad had a '49 Plymouth and I rode with him a lot of places... (his was green, I painted mine black)... the make and model had a lot of sentimental value to me and I just happened to drive by a man's house and saw my "dream car" sitting in the back yard wasting away... paid $350 for it... made it into a brand new looking '49 Plymouth... worth several thousand dollars...
Hey, if people want to buy and drive a Hummer... fine by me... I'd just hate to have to put the fuel in 'em... compared to my "run around" Nissan...
P.S... I didn't think to say that I bought and restored that old Plymouth back in the late 70's or early 80's...
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Post by redleg on Apr 17, 2015 8:53:12 GMT -5
I've owned both since long before you were born... my first Chevy was a '55... my first Ford was a '56... still own both... not that much difference between 'em... Yeah, but we're not talking about rusting hulks sitting on cinder blocks in the tall grass behind your house! (C'mon, man, you put that on a tee for me!) but for my $$$... I'll take the Chevy... I had a Mazda in college (I was a commuter) and that served me faithfully and well into my work years before the body finally started rotting away. So I bought a Ford, 'cause I wanted to support American auto makers. I was young and dumb then. What. A. Mistake. Always needed repairs and I finally bought the Honda when I found out the Ford, still shy of 100K, would need a repair that involved removing the engine. The car I replaced it with? A Japanese machine that I bought in the middle 90s and am still driving today. I've had to repair it, and some of them have been expensive, but it still looks pretty good and runs well. It's closing on 200K. I doubt any American car ever reaches 200K. Unless it's how much money you have to spend at the shop!
American car makers lost me when I realized they just did not care about quality. I'm told that's changed, but short of the expensive experiment of buying one, I can't verify that. And it's not the assembly guys or even the engineers. It's the decision makers at the top responsible for that. As recently as GM's failure we know those guys can't read their customers. And if you can't or won't do that, how do you know they want quality? You would be wrong. I have a '99 F 250 that is about to hit 250,000 miles, and is still running fine. I had to have the AC compressor rebuilt at about 125,000, a speed sensor replaced at about 165,000, and the ball joints replaced at about 180,000, but other than that, I put gas in, change the oil regularly, and not much else. |
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Post by darave on Apr 17, 2015 10:30:48 GMT -5
My wife's Honda accord was mfg. in Ohio
my Subaru Tribeca was mfg. in Indiana
So I supported non union American workers that put out a great product.
The worst vehicle I owned was a 1991 Plymouth caravan the steering went out in a year and the thing nickel and dimed me through the years at 120,000 had to replace the I think was the fuel pump that was inside the gas tank what a mess. My work truck is a 1999 ford F250 with a v10 engine that thing is a beast.
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 17, 2015 11:20:49 GMT -5
Yeah, but we're not talking about rusting hulks sitting on cinder blocks in the tall grass behind your house! (C'mon, man, you put that on a tee for me!) I had a Mazda in college (I was a commuter) and that served me faithfully and well into my work years before the body finally started rotting away. So I bought a Ford, 'cause I wanted to support American auto makers. I was young and dumb then. What. A. Mistake. Always needed repairs and I finally bought the Honda when I found out the Ford, still shy of 100K, would need a repair that involved removing the engine. The car I replaced it with? A Japanese machine that I bought in the middle 90s and am still driving today. I've had to repair it, and some of them have been expensive, but it still looks pretty good and runs well. It's closing on 200K. I doubt any American car ever reaches 200K. Unless it's how much money you have to spend at the shop!
American car makers lost me when I realized they just did not care about quality. I'm told that's changed, but short of the expensive experiment of buying one, I can't verify that. And it's not the assembly guys or even the engineers. It's the decision makers at the top responsible for that. As recently as GM's failure we know those guys can't read their customers. And if you can't or won't do that, how do you know they want quality? You would be wrong. I have a '99 F 250 that is about to hit 250,000 miles, and is still running fine. I had to have the AC compressor rebuilt at about 125,000, a speed sensor replaced at about 165,000, and the ball joints replaced at about 180,000, but other than that, I put gas in, change the oil regularly, and not much else. My wife still has her Chevy HHR which we bought new... a 2007 model, it has just over 204,000 miles on it now... been from Baltimore to Cheyenne and many points south of there in it... replaced struts... (need strut mounts now they say)... replaced 3 of the 4 inside door handles... and other than the alternator going out on a trip to Indianapolis last year, no major problems... uses no oil... about 30+MPG... My Nissan "run around and work car" Sentra is pushing close to 300,000... runs better than the HHR... |
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 17, 2015 11:24:23 GMT -5
My wife's Honda accord was mfg. in Ohio my Subaru Tribeca was mfg. in Indiana So I supported non union American workers that put out a great product. The worst vehicle I owned was a 1991 Plymouth caravan the steering went out in a year and the thing nickel and dimed me through the years at 120,000 had to replace the I think was the fuel pump that was inside the gas tank what a mess. My work truck is a 1999 ford F250 with a v10 engine that thing is a beast. It's not necessarily non-union workers who put out good, or bad, cars... it's the manufacturers themselves who determine the quality of the product they sell... the employees, union or non-union, just put it together... according to the manufacturer's instructions... |
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