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Post by aponderer on Jan 24, 2015 4:09:18 GMT -5
Marine scout sniper and Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer in a USA Today article said American Sniper is pretty accurate. Meyer also criticized Michael Moore on Moore's comments: After the movie set box office records its opening weekend, filmmaker Michael Moore, tweeted that his uncle was killed by a sniper in World War II. "We were taught snipers were cowards," he said. Meyer took offense: "How does a man who never served ... call the men and women who have the most skin in the game on behalf of our nation cowards," he said. I heard Meyer in an interview say that Moore is the coward because he's backpedaling on his statement. Meyer also said he's not sleepless thinking about the enemies he's killed; what keeps him awake at night is thinking about his fellow soldier he wasn't able to save. The USA Today article has comments by other U.S. snipers, too. I think it's an informative article. I believe what most critics of snipers don't realize is that on today's battlefield, the sniper's main task is protecting his fellow soldiers by eliminating direct threats to them. A sniper is putting his life on the line, unlike the "pilot" of a remotely controlled drone thousands of miles away.
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Post by aponderer on Jan 24, 2015 4:37:31 GMT -5
The Sniper has been used by every military since Revoultionary times. Ask the British how they dealt with our Minutemen with their Kentucky Long Rifles. Most Redcoats still had smoothbore muskets and just couldn't reach as far accurately. Later Snipers were used by both sides in the Civil War here knocking some high ranking officers off their mounts. The Europeans really took to it in the late 1800's with their more modern bolt actions we had not developed yet. Our first modern Military bolt action rifles were Imported Krag-Jorgensens if I'm not mistaken. We didn't come up with our own Springfields till 1903. The US only started getting into the craft after WWI but remained far behind the Wehrmacht and the Soviets in WWII. We're pretty much latecomers to the game. Our guys now are some of the best trained in the world. Not only that, but the Brits and other Europeans were used to fighting "civilized" battles where each side lined up its soldiers abreast, and line after line of those soldiers fired volleys at the other side's soldiers, also lined up abreast. The Brits learned in our revolutionary war that fighting European-style battle might be noble, but it wasn't very wise. The Brits eventually caught on, and I believe the record for the longest kill shot is held by a Brit. Speaking of tactics [and I apologize for the tangent] there's an interesting book by Robert Crisp (a Brit) by the title of Brazen Chariots. Crisp explains how the Brits, with their little American-made M-3 "Stuart" tanks were a thorn in Rommel's (the Desert Fox) side in the African desert, despite the Germans having superior Panzer tanks. In a way, the Brits successfully employed sniper tactics against the superior firepower of the Panzers. Crisp's accounts are fascinating IMHO.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 24, 2015 12:16:05 GMT -5
Here's another view by Bill Maher...(I know some of you don't like him... I can take him or leave him myself... but he has a point)... I find myself agreeing with him... they mention "heroes" like Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch... Americans seem to be looking for a hero... because there just aren't' that many of them anymore... now, just most anybody is... and I know we all have our own personal heroes... I sure do... ringoffireradio.com/2015/01/bill-maher-chris-kyle-was-a-psychopath-patriot/
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Post by aponderer on Jan 24, 2015 17:32:47 GMT -5
Here's another view by Bill Maher...(I know some of you don't like him... I can take him or leave him myself... but he has a point)... I find myself agreeing with him... they mention "heroes" like Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch... Americans seem to be looking for a hero... because there just aren't' that many of them anymore... now, just most anybody is... and I know we all have our own personal heroes... I sure do... ringoffireradio.com/2015/01/bill-maher-chris-kyle-was-a-psychopath-patriot/Maher is entitled to his opinion, but an old saying comes to mind: opinions are like a-holes... [amost] everybody has one... When one looks at the widespread definitions of the word hero, I think it boils down to personal preference, and arguing about the definition is like arguing about which color is the prettiest.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 24, 2015 19:52:27 GMT -5
Here's another view by Bill Maher...(I know some of you don't like him... I can take him or leave him myself... but he has a point)... I find myself agreeing with him... they mention "heroes" like Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch... Americans seem to be looking for a hero... because there just aren't' that many of them anymore... now, just most anybody is... and I know we all have our own personal heroes... I sure do... ringoffireradio.com/2015/01/bill-maher-chris-kyle-was-a-psychopath-patriot/Maher is entitled to his opinion, but an old saying comes to mind: opinions are like a-holes... [amost] everybody has one... When one looks at the widespread definitions of the word hero, I think it boils down to personal preference, and arguing about the definition is like arguing about which color is the prettiest. I agree... but I just don't like to throw the word "hero" around like an every day word... heroes are not made every day and other than those who are just personal heroes... I tend to admire and hold up as individuals who have done something very exceptional... not just how many individuals you may have killed... I would hold the man who uncoupled the train cars here in Laurel Mississippi many years ago at great risk to his own life... may not have saved a single life... but then he might have saved hundreds of individuals and enormous property damage... or the man I know who covered a grenade and saved many individuals at the cost of his own life by being willing to sacrifice his own... or the man I knew who threw himself on the live grenade... and in dying, saved the lives of several of his fellow solders... at the expense of his own... or James D Slaton... or Roy Wheat... and others... those are MY real heroes...
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Post by stevez51 on Jan 24, 2015 20:16:40 GMT -5
CNN did something a while back where you could submit someone you thought was a hero. Maybe that's what you meant about it being thrown around.
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Post by towsongirl on Jan 24, 2015 20:20:50 GMT -5
I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but I would like to say that I think the term "hero" is too loosely used these days. "Heroic effort" is more appropriate in most situations that make the news.
If I were to dash into the street to save an elderly person from being hit by a distracted driver, I would say that I had made a heroic effort and saved that person's life, because I, too, could have been injured or killed. (This actually happened.) I certainly wouldn't call myself a "hero." I simply intervened, was in the right place at the right time, knew what I could do, and was able to act quickly.
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Post by aponderer on Jan 24, 2015 21:17:56 GMT -5
Maher is entitled to his opinion, but an old saying comes to mind: opinions are like a-holes... [amost] everybody has one... When one looks at the widespread definitions of the word hero, I think it boils down to personal preference, and arguing about the definition is like arguing about which color is the prettiest. I agree... but I just don't like to throw the word "hero" around like an every day word... heroes are not made every day and other than those who are just personal heroes... I tend to admire and hold up as individuals who have done something very exceptional... not just how many individuals you may have killed...I would hold the man who uncoupled the train cars here in Laurel Mississippi many years ago at great risk to his own life... may not have saved a single life... but then he might have saved hundreds of individuals and enormous property damage... or the man I know who covered a grenade and saved many individuals at the cost of his own life by being willing to sacrifice his own... or the man I knew who threw himself on the live grenade... and in dying, saved the lives of several of his fellow solders... at the expense of his own... or James D Slaton... or Roy Wheat... and others... those are MY real heroes... In all likelihood, most dads are heroes to their young children (those dads are personal heroes, as A.D. puts it, to their kids). And agreed, certainly the body count itself doesn't make one a hero (Timothy McVey comes to mind...). However, when the enemy body count contributes to American and coalition lives saved, that is an altogether different issue. Especially if the one running up the body count risks his own life doing "doing his job." In the case of Chris Kyle on the battlefield, he was shot twice, survived six IEDs, and earned two Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars for valor in combat. And to anyone who would detract from Chris Kyle's service.
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Post by towsongirl on Jan 24, 2015 21:30:17 GMT -5
My adopted father raised me to be a loved, humble, talented, caring little girl who turned into the woman I am now. He wasn't a "hero" he was my father, and a very wonderful father. I'm just not into calling a parent a "hero."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 22:35:52 GMT -5
Tommy. I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap. An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 25, 2015 2:37:03 GMT -5
CNN did something a while back where you could submit someone you thought was a hero. Maybe that's what you meant about it being thrown around. Nope...
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Post by rentedmule on Jan 25, 2015 6:21:35 GMT -5
Tommy. I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap. An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling Aye. Was Mr. Kipling a VietNam vet perchance?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 7:33:06 GMT -5
Tommy. I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap. An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling Aye. Was Mr. Kipling a VietNam vet perchance? No, he was a few wars before that one but he pretty much spoke for the Vietnam vets who experienced the same old, same old.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 25, 2015 11:53:46 GMT -5
Meyer is entitled to his opinion, but an old saying comes to mind: opinions are like a-holes... [almost] everybody has one...
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Post by aponderer on Jan 25, 2015 12:37:01 GMT -5
Meyer is entitled to his opinion, but an old saying comes to mind: opinions are like a-holes... [almost] everybody has one... That's true, of course, but I would think even you would give a Medal of Honor recipient the benefit of the doubt. BTW, do you think those who have earned the Medal of Honor are not all heroes?
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 25, 2015 12:52:35 GMT -5
I do... but they still have their personal opinions... just like most everyone else does...
(I'm sure you noticed that my comment is exactly like yours... with the exception of one word... )
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 25, 2015 13:21:01 GMT -5
A medal of honor winner > serial liar Michael Moore. Always.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 25, 2015 14:06:37 GMT -5
A medal of honor winner > serial liar Michael Moore. Always. In some things... but certainly not all... And whether or not he even is a "serial liar" is debatable... you guys thought Bill Clinton was a lot of "serial" things as well...
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Post by aponderer on Jan 25, 2015 16:18:14 GMT -5
A medal of honor winner > serial liar Michael Moore. Always. In some things... but certainly not all... And whether or not he even is a "serial liar" is debatable... you guys thought Bill Clinton was a lot of "serial" things as well... Clinton wasn't always the most truthful guy in the room. But which politician is?...
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 26, 2015 10:58:03 GMT -5
Brett Hollander called Michael Moore "The Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man" this morning. Have to say that got a chuckle from me.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 26, 2015 15:24:57 GMT -5
Michael Moore is just another irrelevant man... why do people get so bent out of shape when he says something... he probably loves that... and you give him what he craves...
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Post by rocketwolf on Jan 30, 2015 17:15:48 GMT -5
I think that you are judging Moore's character by his politics. The thing I object to is that he tells lies to get his point across, in those "faux"cumentaries he makes. He's been called out on it by left and right. That's a character problem irrelevant to his politics. If you say you dont like a person of the left wing, BE and AB will always say that you hate them for their race, politics or something unconnected to their politics. It will always be a lose lose, they will out post on here or just out scream you in person.
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Post by rocketwolf on Jan 30, 2015 17:22:58 GMT -5
HERE are several definitions of the word hero. Do any of these fit your definition? Bill Cosby is a "hero" to many... a "SOB" to many others... take your pick... we are at the point of losing the real meaning of a "real" hero... one who goes well "above and beyond" what is expected... Kyle was indeed a "hero" to many... an "brown eye" to many others... you may want to read up a little more on the man... I already have... --------------------------------------------- Here's you a REAL hero... (and yes, folks... this man was a personal friend of mine)... The President of the United States in the name of The Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to SLATON, JAMES D. Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Army, 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division. Place and Date Near Oliveto, Italy, 23 September 1943. Entered Service at: Gulfport, Miss. Born: 2 April 1912, Laurel, Miss G.O. No.: 44, 30 May 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy in the vicinity of Oliveto, Italy, on 23 September 1943. Cpl. Slaton was lead scout of an infantry squad which had been committed to a flank to knock out enemy resistance which had succeeded in pinning 2 attacking platoons to the ground. Working ahead of his squad, Cpl. Slaton crept upon an enemy machinegun nest and, assaulting it with his bayonet, succeeded in killing the gunner. When his bayonet stuck, he detached it from the rifle and killed another gunner with rifle fire. At that time he was fired upon by a machinegun to his immediate left. Cpl. Slaton then moved over open ground under constant fire to within throwing distance, and on his second try scored a direct hit on the second enemy machinegun nest, killing 2 enemy gunners. At that time a third machinegun fired on him 100 yards to his front, and Cpl. Slaton killed both of these enemy gunners with rifle fire. As a result of Cpl. Slaton's heroic action in immobilizing 3 enemy machinegun nests with bayonet, grenade, and rifle fire, the 2 rifle platoons which were receiving heavy casualties from enemy fire were enabled to withdraw to covered positions and again take the initiative. Cpl. Slaton withdrew under mortar fire on order of his platoon leader at dusk that evening. The heroic actions of Cpl. Slaton were far above and beyond the call of duty and are worthy of emulation.Too many people have used the word Hero on those who hit, bounce or pass balls and win that days particular sports contest. It has cheapened the word to dangerous level.
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Post by rocketwolf on Jan 30, 2015 17:53:11 GMT -5
I saw it last night, its a good movie but a tough movie to watch, knowing it will not be a "happy" ending. I recommend it.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 30, 2015 18:44:56 GMT -5
Bill Cosby is a "hero" to many... a "SOB" to many others... take your pick... we are at the point of losing the real meaning of a "real" hero... one who goes well "above and beyond" what is expected... Kyle was indeed a "hero" to many... an "brown eye" to many others... you may want to read up a little more on the man... I already have... --------------------------------------------- Here's you a REAL hero... (and yes, folks... this man was a personal friend of mine)... The President of the United States in the name of The Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to SLATON, JAMES D. Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Army, 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division. Place and Date Near Oliveto, Italy, 23 September 1943. Entered Service at: Gulfport, Miss. Born: 2 April 1912, Laurel, Miss G.O. No.: 44, 30 May 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy in the vicinity of Oliveto, Italy, on 23 September 1943. Cpl. Slaton was lead scout of an infantry squad which had been committed to a flank to knock out enemy resistance which had succeeded in pinning 2 attacking platoons to the ground. Working ahead of his squad, Cpl. Slaton crept upon an enemy machinegun nest and, assaulting it with his bayonet, succeeded in killing the gunner. When his bayonet stuck, he detached it from the rifle and killed another gunner with rifle fire. At that time he was fired upon by a machinegun to his immediate left. Cpl. Slaton then moved over open ground under constant fire to within throwing distance, and on his second try scored a direct hit on the second enemy machinegun nest, killing 2 enemy gunners. At that time a third machinegun fired on him 100 yards to his front, and Cpl. Slaton killed both of these enemy gunners with rifle fire. As a result of Cpl. Slaton's heroic action in immobilizing 3 enemy machinegun nests with bayonet, grenade, and rifle fire, the 2 rifle platoons which were receiving heavy casualties from enemy fire were enabled to withdraw to covered positions and again take the initiative. Cpl. Slaton withdrew under mortar fire on order of his platoon leader at dusk that evening. The heroic actions of Cpl. Slaton were far above and beyond the call of duty and are worthy of emulation.Too many people have used the word Hero on those who hit, bounce or pass balls and win that day 's particular sports contest. It has cheapened the word to dangerous level. On that, I think we can agree 100%...
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