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Post by kemmer on Nov 15, 2013 23:48:27 GMT -5
Punishments are not harsh in Baltimore City Public Schools. Interim CEO Tisha Edwards stated that bringing a knife or firearm to school should not mean automatic expulsion. Plus there is pressure in this low performing district to keep suspensions down, official reason that suspended kids can't learn, but the reality is that disruptive, combative students ruin the learning environment for all in the class. Students can even assault a teacher, doing something that would be illegal out on the street, but in school nothing happens. How do I know this? Even teh Sun in the past has reported school assaults and my wife is a 15 year city special ed teacher. I think there are complex reasons behind the behaviors and that not sanctioning these behaviors is condoning them and encouraging them. This is true. It is, also, true that the disciplinary code was written system-wide-- at least the one we had when I was there was. Therefore, the consequences are the same for a kindergartener as for a senior in high school. We should note that expelling a teen who brought a real gun to school wouldn't make headlines. Everyone would think that was common sense. A first grader with a squirt gun? Not so much. Having separate codes for primary, elementary, and upper grades would help. Of course, there's no such thing as permanent expulsion, these days, since education has been declared to be a "right." Baltimore City schools would be much higher performing if disruptive, violent students could be expelled. Trust me, school is where teen social life occurs. Give it a year for the new policy to sink in, and the students would straighten up rather than risk expulsion. Children are just like adults. They learn to conform to whatever social climate is expected. If daily fights in the hallways, cussing, talking back to teachers, et al, is the normal school climate, the students will exhibit those behaviors. After all, which would YOU rather do? A whole page of long division, or watch a fight?
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Post by Ravenchamp on Nov 16, 2013 10:11:41 GMT -5
It most certainly did and with the rifles stored in the school It's amazing how far down the drain we've already gone. It's beyond pathetic I know
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Post by leon on Nov 16, 2013 10:57:11 GMT -5
Punishments are not harsh in Baltimore City Public Schools. Interim CEO Tisha Edwards stated that bringing a knife or firearm to school should not mean automatic expulsion. Plus there is pressure in this low performing district to keep suspensions down, official reason that suspended kids can't learn, but the reality is that disruptive, combative students ruin the learning environment for all in the class. Students can even assault a teacher, doing something that would be illegal out on the street, but in school nothing happens. How do I know this? Even teh Sun in the past has reported school assaults and my wife is a 15 year city special ed teacher. I think there are complex reasons behind the behaviors and that not sanctioning these behaviors is condoning them and encouraging them. I have heard that the reason is that they do not want to seem discriminatory because most of the offenses are committed by blacks. If blacks are caught more than their representation in the GENERAL US population (not the representation in the school population) then it is seen as racist. Go figure. I have heard this as well. It seems to all be part of the last 10 years or so attempt for "equality." Nevermind that FBI stats clearly show a higher percentage of crimes committed by one group (an old round robin argument from teh Sunspot Locals forum). Apparently Trayvon Martin had received leniency from school police due to the desire to keep stats down.
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Post by leon on Nov 16, 2013 10:59:13 GMT -5
Schools don't want to suspend or expel for serious, violent offenses as the may be labeled "persistently dangerous." They also don't want to punish minority students for fear of being accused of "racial disparity" in punishment. But they don't want to tolerate any misbehavior or been seen as weak- so they overreact to relatively minor infractions. What a mess. Also true, the persistently dangerous label really came to the fore with the federal government's further intrusion into education with NCLB, where high suspension rates detracted against the school and not with the perpetrators and their parents (where it rightly belongs in most cases).
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Post by douger on Nov 16, 2013 11:00:30 GMT -5
I have heard that the reason is that they do not want to seem discriminatory because most of the offenses are committed by blacks. If blacks are caught more than their representation in the GENERAL US population (not the representation in the school population) then it is seen as racist. Go figure. I have heard this as well. It seems to all be part of the last 10 years or so attempt for "equality." Nevermind that FBI stats clearly show a higher percentage of crimes committed by one group (an old round robin argument from teh Sunspot Locals forum). Apparently Trayvon Martin had received leniency from school police due to the desire to keep stats down. Since your wife is a special ed teacher, are they still shipping disruptive students to special ed, not because of special needs but to remove them from "normal" classrooms?
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Post by leon on Nov 16, 2013 11:03:47 GMT -5
I have heard that the reason is that they do not want to seem discriminatory because most of the offenses are committed by blacks. If blacks are caught more than their representation in the GENERAL US population (not the representation in the school population) then it is seen as racist. Go figure. There is some of that driving the "zero tolerance" policy-- fear of lawsuit. There is, also, the difficulty under federal "inclusion" law to document the seriously emotionally disturbed students who need special ed services. At least, that is true in Baltimore City which operated under a consent decree (poissibly still operates under it) to reduce the number of special ed students in the system. True; want a school to do something? Threaten to sue or cry racism. Having observed Baltimore City Publics Schools special ed for a while, I think it is underfunded for the amount of kids that need services and the special ed folks are in near impossible jobs where paperwork, inadequate curriculum materials and resources, unsupportive administration (they play the sh!t rolls downhill CYA game, us vs them) and parent/guardians do not assist. Spec Ed students are expected to take and place on the same standardized tests as "regular" students - what a crock! Why do you think these kids are in special ed? ED, LD, MMR, oppositional defiance disorder etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 12:14:30 GMT -5
There is some of that driving the "zero tolerance" policy-- fear of lawsuit. There is, also, the difficulty under federal "inclusion" law to document the seriously emotionally disturbed students who need special ed services. At least, that is true in Baltimore City which operated under a consent decree (poissibly still operates under it) to reduce the number of special ed students in the system. True; want a school to do something? Threaten to sue or cry racism. Having observed Baltimore City Publics Schools special ed for a while, I think it is underfunded for the amount of kids that need services and the special ed folks are in near impossible jobs where paperwork, inadequate curriculum materials and resources, unsupportive administration (they play the sh!t rolls downhill CYA game, us vs them) and parent/guardians do not assist. Spec Ed students are expected to take and place on the same standardized tests as "regular" students - what a crock! Why do you think these kids are in special ed? ED, LD, MMR, oppositional defiance disorder etc. Back when I worked in foster care, I used to sit in IEP meetings with the school psyhcologist, the school social worker, the special ed teacher, the special ed aid, the IEP coordinator, have the psychiatrist and therapist teleconference in, and the foster parent- and we'd talk for an hour over goals like, "Child will reduce incidents of profanity in classroom by 35%"; "Child will remaiin seated 80% of required classroom time", etc. I was new-- I thought we could actually help kids! After a few years, I realized- it's a crock of sh!t. The amount of money spent-- even on just that one hour!- is amazing. For no results. Can't coordinate your way out of drug addict parenting resulting in brain damaged children that no one is allowed to actually discipline for fear of "hurting their development", or child abuse charges. We've invested in billions in, essentially, beating around the bush- the disintegration of family.
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Post by leon on Nov 16, 2013 13:46:26 GMT -5
True; want a school to do something? Threaten to sue or cry racism. Having observed Baltimore City Publics Schools special ed for a while, I think it is underfunded for the amount of kids that need services and the special ed folks are in near impossible jobs where paperwork, inadequate curriculum materials and resources, unsupportive administration (they play the sh!t rolls downhill CYA game, us vs them) and parent/guardians do not assist. Spec Ed students are expected to take and place on the same standardized tests as "regular" students - what a crock! Why do you think these kids are in special ed? ED, LD, MMR, oppositional defiance disorder etc. Back when I worked in foster care, I used to sit in IEP meetings with the school psyhcologist, the school social worker, the special ed teacher, the special ed aid, the IEP coordinator, have the psychiatrist and therapist teleconference in, and the foster parent- and we'd talk for an hour over goals like, "Child will reduce incidents of profanity in classroom by 35%"; "Child will remaiin seated 80% of required classroom time", etc. I was new-- I thought we could actually help kids! After a few years, I realized- it's a crock of sh!t. The amount of money spent-- even on just that one hour!- is amazing. For no results. Can't coordinate your way out of drug addict parenting resulting in brain damaged children that no one is allowed to actually discipline for fear of "hurting their development", or child abuse charges. We've invested in billions in, essentially, beating around the bush- the disintegration of family. Yes, that's exactly it, the desintegration of the family. Kids are in school ~7 hours for 180 days, the world has them for the other 17 hours of those 180 days and the 185 remaining days of the year. When there is little or no reinforcement from the non school hours, the school hours don't count for much. Behavior that is not sanctioned is condoned. Schools are held to standards they cannot achieve with the resources and parameters they are given, so it all becomes lip service and hand wringing to the good that is supposed to be mandated from on high. My kids do not attend public schools anymore as we do not like how they "teach" what they "teach". Common Core will be another failure, to be replaced by the next rubric & testing a system has overpayed for. Meanwhile undisciplined/entitled kids will exit school with substandard educations that employers will either reject or pony up to retrain all the tune of ever escalating tax dollars. I think schools should bring back tracking and votech programs and teach life skills and hold students and their parents accountable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 19:18:21 GMT -5
Back when I worked in foster care, I used to sit in IEP meetings with the school psyhcologist, the school social worker, the special ed teacher, the special ed aid, the IEP coordinator, have the psychiatrist and therapist teleconference in, and the foster parent- and we'd talk for an hour over goals like, "Child will reduce incidents of profanity in classroom by 35%"; "Child will remaiin seated 80% of required classroom time", etc. I was new-- I thought we could actually help kids! After a few years, I realized- it's a crock of sh!t. The amount of money spent-- even on just that one hour!- is amazing. For no results. Can't coordinate your way out of drug addict parenting resulting in brain damaged children that no one is allowed to actually discipline for fear of "hurting their development", or child abuse charges. We've invested in billions in, essentially, beating around the bush- the disintegration of family. Yes, that's exactly it, the desintegration of the family. Kids are in school ~7 hours for 180 days, the world has them for the other 17 hours of those 180 days and the 185 remaining days of the year. When there is little or no reinforcement from the non school hours, the school hours don't count for much. Behavior that is not sanctioned is condoned. Schools are held to standards they cannot achieve with the resources and parameters they are given, so it all becomes lip service and hand wringing to the good that is supposed to be mandated from on high. My kids do not attend public schools anymore as we do not like how they "teach" what they "teach". Common Core will be another failure, to be replaced by the next rubric & testing a system has overpayed for. Meanwhile undisciplined/entitled kids will exit school with substandard educations that employers will either reject or pony up to retrain all the tune of ever escalating tax dollars. I think schools should bring back tracking and votech programs and teach life skills and hold students and their parents accountable. Cultural decay has contributed to the fall of many nations- Ancient Rome comes to mind. The leftist revolt against marriage and sexual responsibility without any valid replacement is at the root of many of our cultural issues. But you can't state that directly-if you do, you're "insensitive to the plight of single mothers", or you're "racist", or you're a "religous nut." So the cycle goes on- because no one in power can officially state the root cause. And if you can't state it, you can't address it.
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Post by Moses on Nov 16, 2013 21:55:23 GMT -5
Yes, that's exactly it, the desintegration of the family. Kids are in school ~7 hours for 180 days, the world has them for the other 17 hours of those 180 days and the 185 remaining days of the year. When there is little or no reinforcement from the non school hours, the school hours don't count for much. Behavior that is not sanctioned is condoned. Schools are held to standards they cannot achieve with the resources and parameters they are given, so it all becomes lip service and hand wringing to the good that is supposed to be mandated from on high. My kids do not attend public schools anymore as we do not like how they "teach" what they "teach". Common Core will be another failure, to be replaced by the next rubric & testing a system has overpayed for. Meanwhile undisciplined/entitled kids will exit school with substandard educations that employers will either reject or pony up to retrain all the tune of ever escalating tax dollars. I think schools should bring back tracking and votech programs and teach life skills and hold students and their parents accountable. Cultural decay has contributed to the fall of many nations- Ancient Rome comes to mind. The leftist revolt against marriage and sexual responsibility without any valid replacement is at the root of many of our cultural issues. But you can't state that directly-if you do, you're "insensitive to the plight of single mothers", or you're "racist", or you're a "religous nut." So the cycle goes on- because no one in power can officially state the root cause. And if you can't state it, you can't address it. Lol
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Post by Moses on Nov 16, 2013 21:57:23 GMT -5
School is a business now. Teachers are similar to government employees. In hindsight we should of homeschooled
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Post by Ravenchamp on Nov 18, 2013 11:47:17 GMT -5
School is a business now. Teachers are similar to government employees. In hindsight we should of homeschooled More and more families are home schooling these days. We have 2 personal friends and one business client who does. I see the benefits to this I really do, but the lack of interaction with people, getting out, doing normal school activities is what I can't get my head around.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Nov 18, 2013 12:15:58 GMT -5
School is a business now. Teachers are similar to government employees. In hindsight we should of homeschooled More and more families are home schooling these days. We have 2 personal friends and one business client who does. I see the benefits to this I really do, but the lack of interaction with people, getting out, doing normal school activities is what I can't get my head around. Most homeschoolers do get out and interact, they just do it outside the prison/school institutional environment.
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Post by redleg on Nov 18, 2013 12:46:28 GMT -5
School is a business now. Teachers are similar to government employees. In hindsight we should of homeschooled More and more families are home schooling these days. We have 2 personal friends and one business client who does. I see the benefits to this I really do, but the lack of interaction with people, getting out, doing normal school activities is what I can't get my head around. And when enough parents start doing that, watch for it to become illegal, the way it is becoming in CA. After all, can't have kids learning things the government doesn't want them to know, and not learning what it does.
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Post by leon on Nov 18, 2013 12:49:44 GMT -5
There are homeschool networks where folks can pool resources for field trips, curriculum, socializing etc.
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Post by com6063 on Nov 18, 2013 13:26:18 GMT -5
We homeschool our kids. One of our friends who also does has a bumper sticker that says "Danger: Unsocialized Homeschoolers On Board."
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Post by vosa on Nov 18, 2013 13:34:18 GMT -5
Teachers are similar to government employees. Public school teachers have always been government employees. Do try to keep up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 13:39:41 GMT -5
Teachers are similar to government employees. Public school teachers have always been government employees. Do try to keep up. Thank you, Vosa! I have two neighbors who are current Harford County teachers. Both of them describe the system as socialist in nature. My reply to them? "You get for what you voted!"
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Nov 18, 2013 14:53:57 GMT -5
Public school teachers have always been government employees. Do try to keep up. Thank you, Vosa! I have two neighbors who are current Harford County teachers. Both of them describe the system as socialist in nature. My reply to them? "You get for what you voted!" Or you get what other people voted for. Tyranny of the majority.
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Post by kemmer on Nov 18, 2013 23:42:56 GMT -5
There are homeschool networks where folks can pool resources for field trips, curriculum, socializing etc. There are, indeed. It's not just Mom in the kitchen. My daughter was often invited to do activities with a local homeschool group; they don't stop in the summer.
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Post by kemmer on Nov 18, 2013 23:50:12 GMT -5
True; want a school to do something? Threaten to sue or cry racism. Having observed Baltimore City Publics Schools special ed for a while, I think it is underfunded for the amount of kids that need services and the special ed folks are in near impossible jobs where paperwork, inadequate curriculum materials and resources, unsupportive administration (they play the sh!t rolls downhill CYA game, us vs them) and parent/guardians do not assist. Spec Ed students are expected to take and place on the same standardized tests as "regular" students - what a crock! Why do you think these kids are in special ed? ED, LD, MMR, oppositional defiance disorder etc. Back when I worked in foster care, I used to sit in IEP meetings with the school psyhcologist, the school social worker, the special ed teacher, the special ed aid, the IEP coordinator, have the psychiatrist and therapist teleconference in, and the foster parent- and we'd talk for an hour over goals like, "Child will reduce incidents of profanity in classroom by 35%"; "Child will remaiin seated 80% of required classroom time", etc. I was new-- I thought we could actually help kids! After a few years, I realized- it's a crock of sh!t. The amount of money spent-- even on just that one hour!- is amazing. For no results. Can't coordinate your way out of drug addict parenting resulting in brain damaged children that no one is allowed to actually discipline for fear of "hurting their development", or child abuse charges. We've invested in billions in, essentially, beating around the bush- the disintegration of family. My daughter was special ed in K and 1st due to a speech impediment. The list of people required to be at those meetings (to all sit around and say, "Yes, she needs speech therapy") was appalling. Ummm... we faked it. The therapist and I sat down and worked out the IEP in about 15 minutes. Everyone else just signed off as if they'd been there. [I'm pretty sure the statue of limitations has run out on filing fraudulent spec ed paperwork-- at least, I hope it has.]
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Post by kemmer on Nov 18, 2013 23:54:57 GMT -5
We homeschool our kids. One of our friends who also does has a bumper sticker that says "Danger: Unsocialized Homeschoolers On Board." Often forgotten fact: The homeschool movement really got going in the 1960's, when wild-eyed liberals (read: hippie types) didn't want their children trained to be "cogs in the military/industrial machine." They were the ones who brought down state laws against anyone without a teaching certificate homeschooling.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 8:22:50 GMT -5
It's all on scale. Local school boards, local schools- like PA's very small local school system model- is ideal for public schools. Larger the school system becomes, the more bureaucratic, and less responsive to the people that live there- more responsive to its own institutional needs. Add in Feds imposing national control- you get the mess of political indoctrination currently going on in the schools. As well as the wildly expensive, failed policies that are efforts to socialize and train children while failing to hold parents accountable.
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Post by douger on Nov 19, 2013 9:36:16 GMT -5
Back when I worked in foster care, I used to sit in IEP meetings with the school psyhcologist, the school social worker, the special ed teacher, the special ed aid, the IEP coordinator, have the psychiatrist and therapist teleconference in, and the foster parent- and we'd talk for an hour over goals like, "Child will reduce incidents of profanity in classroom by 35%"; "Child will remaiin seated 80% of required classroom time", etc. I was new-- I thought we could actually help kids! After a few years, I realized- it's a crock of sh!t. The amount of money spent-- even on just that one hour!- is amazing. For no results. Can't coordinate your way out of drug addict parenting resulting in brain damaged children that no one is allowed to actually discipline for fear of "hurting their development", or child abuse charges. We've invested in billions in, essentially, beating around the bush- the disintegration of family. My daughter was special ed in K and 1st due to a speech impediment. The list of people required to be at those meetings (to all sit around and say, "Yes, she needs speech therapy") was appalling. Ummm... we faked it. The therapist and I sat down and worked out the IEP in about 15 minutes. Everyone else just signed off as if they'd been there. [I'm pretty sure the statue of limitations has run out on filing fraudulent spec ed paperwork-- at least, I hope it has.] My brother also had a speech impediment when he was very young. "R's" and "W's" as I remember. I don't remember special ed so much as a weekly session with a speech pathologist. He was in advanced placement classes from just about the beginning.
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Post by kemmer on Nov 20, 2013 0:08:04 GMT -5
It's all on scale. Local school boards, local schools- like PA's very small local school system model- is ideal for public schools. Larger the school system becomes, the more bureaucratic, and less responsive to the people that live there- more responsive to its own institutional needs. Add in Feds imposing national control- you get the mess of political indoctrination currently going on in the schools. As well as the wildly expensive, failed policies that are efforts to socialize and train children while failing to hold parents accountable. Agree. When schools are local, the local people feel ownership. When they feel ownership, accountability follows. Local administrators feel ownership, too, when they aren't set upon by federal bureaucrats telling them to re-design the whole system according to the latest fad. (Remember the feds' first tip-toe into local ed, back when Sputnik went up? That gave us the "new math"-- trying to teach elementary-school children to calculate in base 8 before they were competent in base 10? How'd that work out?) It's a canard that parents in failing systems are 100% of the problem. It's, also, a canard that they don't care about education. True, many black parents don't trust public schools (history says they shouldn't, after all.) But that doesn't mean they don't CARE. In my experience, if educrats ever bothered to ask PARENTS about what their children should be learning, we'd never see students allowed to skate by without being able to multiply 6x8 without a calculator. Teachers would be expected to alert students to incorrect spelling and grammar-- with a RED PENCIL. Immigrant parents not proficient in English would ask the school to teach their children English, and as for "ebonics"-- trust me, that was NOT some "poor parents movement." Even if they don't speak standard English, parents want their children to learn it. "Ebonics" as a creole language is of interest to linguists. The only black people who'd ever heard of it before it was introduced into selected public schools were tenured educrats in universities (who all spoke "standard" English very well, thank you.) [Sidebar Personal Experience: When I taught first grade I gave homework, every night. I don't believe first graders should get homework-- that should be reserved for second grade as a "rite of passage." Why did I give it? Because my PARENTS really wanted their children to have homework. Not only did they want homework, they wanted homework hard enough that their children needed their help to do it. Trust me, they CARED!] Let's not forget the BIG ONE in dysfunctional school systems. Parents do not want their children punched, kicked, spit on, or URINATED on by other people's little thugs-in-training. They really don't care if violent students are expelled or just sent someplace else. What they do NOT want is those kids in their children's classrooms. If the miscreants wind up on the streets, well too bad. Schools should respond to parents, and not just say, "Sorry, federal law prohibits that." That's what too many parents hear these days. Teachers and administrators hear that, too. And, yes, I am old enough to remember when the NEA was a professional association, and not a quaisi-labor union, and they were totally opposed to the federal government taking over education. My how times have changed! Hmmm...did the Federal Department of Education ever find the cars they "lost"? As a taxpayer, I'm still wondering about that. As an educator, I'm still wondering how taxpayers buying automobiles for educrats benefits students.
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