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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 18:22:53 GMT -5
The NFL actually has a very easy out on this whole matter. If they can't find conclusive evidence that New England deliberately tampered with the balls, then they can at least claim that the under-inflated balls had little impact on a game that needed to be a whole lot closer just to be considered a blowout, then take steps to remedy the situation going forward. If they're so precise about game equipment, then why entrust that task to some guy who is likely being paid close to minimum wage by the home team?
I believe the head referee is who inspects the balls, two hours, 15 minutes before game time, correct? Yes, the referee is the sole judge as to whether the balls are fit for play, but the balls on both sidelines are then both placed under the supervision of an equipment manager. As the home team, New England was responsible for providing one for each sideline.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 18:38:12 GMT -5
I believe the head referee is who inspects the balls, two hours, 15 minutes before game time, correct? Yes, the referee is the sole judge as to whether the balls are fit for play, but the balls on both sidelines are then both placed under the supervision of an equipment manager. As the home team, New England was responsible for providing one for each sideline. Yeah, maybe that does have to change, as a response. Though, I don't think this is a widespread issue. The real issue is the Patriots, and their history of breaking/bending rules to get edges that while people can say "yeah, but everyone does it", yet it the Patriots are the ones that keep getting caught.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 18:46:48 GMT -5
Yes, the referee is the sole judge as to whether the balls are fit for play, but the balls on both sidelines are then both placed under the supervision of an equipment manager. As the home team, New England was responsible for providing one for each sideline. Yeah, maybe that does have to change, as a response. Though, I don't think this is a widespread issue. The real issue is the Patriots, and their history of breaking/bending rules to get edges that while people can say "yeah, but everyone does it", yet it the Patriots are the ones that keep getting caught. And unless the league can find conclusive evidence that someone on New England deliberately tampered with the footballs before game time, then changing the rules would likely be the only course of action. As I said, their escape hatch in this whole matter is "45-7." Yes, it was shady, but no sane person is ever going to believe that a couple of under-inflated footballs had that much of an impact on any one game.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 19:09:52 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe that does have to change, as a response. Though, I don't think this is a widespread issue. The real issue is the Patriots, and their history of breaking/bending rules to get edges that while people can say "yeah, but everyone does it", yet it the Patriots are the ones that keep getting caught. As I said, their escape hatch in this whole matter is "45-7." Yes, it was shady, but no sane person is ever going to believe that a couple of under-inflated footballs had that much of an impact on any one game.
You're assuming though, that people believe that was the only game that they've tampered with balls. In a close game, for ahem, example, the divisional matchup with the Ravens, a single dropped pass could have meant an entirely different outcome. And according to the actual players, a soft ball is a definite advantage to catching, and even throwing. Brunell said he could throw an underinflated ball 10 yards further. I don't think there is much of an escape hatch. The spotlight has been on Goodell and the NFL for some time, and this is yet another situation that they have to address, and do it in a manner that keeps the image of the league from further embarrassment. I don't know if they'll have enough evidence to suspend Brady or Belichick, but they do have enough evidence to take action on the team itself. As I, and countless others have been saying - those balls didn't magically lose 2 psi - they were no question, tampered with. That's and unavoidable, undeniable fact that has to be dealt with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 19:24:28 GMT -5
As I said, their escape hatch in this whole matter is "45-7." Yes, it was shady, but no sane person is ever going to believe that a couple of under-inflated footballs had that much of an impact on any one game.
You're assuming though, that people believe that was the only game that they've tampered with balls. In a close game, for ahem, example, the divisional matchup with the Ravens, a single dropped pass could have meant an entirely different outcome. And according to the actual players, a soft ball is a definite advantage to catching, and even throwing. Brunell said he could throw an underinflated ball 10 yards further. I don't think there is much of an escape hatch. The spotlight has been on Goodell and the NFL for some time, and this is yet another situation that they have to address, and do it in a manner that keeps the image of the league from further embarrassment. I don't know if they'll have enough evidence to suspend Brady or Belichick, but they do have enough evidence to take action on the team itself. As I, and countless others have been saying - those balls didn't magically lose 2 psi - they were no question, tampered with. That's and unavoidable, undeniable fact that has to be dealt with. Harbaugh has already gone on record as saying that the Ravens didn't notice anything unusual. If he were to suddenly reverse himself and say the opposite, then his credibility looks rather shaky. I think the Ravens are trying to distance themselves as much as possible from this, which is probably the right thing to do. If they start making claims against New England, then their motives may be in question since they lost a close playoff game to the Patriots.
One of three things is going to happen. If the league can prove the Belichick had knowledge of this, then they come down hard on the team, probably with a suspension for him and loss of draft picks for the franchise. If they can prove Brady had prior knowledge, then it's probably a $25,000 fine and we move on. If neither, then amend the rules to keep it from happening again.
The league has to be careful about mob rule on this matter since there are a lot of people who don't like the Patriots. Goodell has a lot of latitude in this matter, but he can't give in to vigilante justice.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 19:44:14 GMT -5
One of three things is going to happen. If the league can prove the Belichick had knowledge of this, then they come down hard on the team, probably with a suspension for him and loss of draft picks for the franchise. If they can prove Brady had prior knowledge, then it's probably a $25,000 fine and we move on. If neither, then amend the rules to keep it from happening again.
Yup, that is pretty much what I am thinking. Belichick knows because of his priors, he's in deep caca if they prove he had knowledge, especially after going in front of the press today and denying it. He's definitely facing suspension if that is the case, and yeah, the franchise will lose picks for sure. They still might, even if it's only Brady - and I submit to you this: Goodell's own words when suspending Sean Payton: "Ignorance is no excuse". They never proved Payton had direct knowledge of Bounty Gate, but Goodell dealt him a 1 year suspension. Brady is very likely to face at least the fine regardless. Nobody, and I mean nobody believes he doesn't know what happened. If they don't find direct smoking gun proof, I think he gets the fine, and that's the end of it for him, since he doesn't have any history really. 25k is a slap on the wrist, and nobody will feel like Brady wasn't being done injustice even without total proof. If they do find proof though(and really, the last thing NFL wants now is for TMZ to suddenly show up with some video of somebody doing it), then Brady is going to face suspension of some kind, especially after blatantly lying at the press conference. Most of the talking heads are saying he really blew his chance to just walk away with a fine and be done with it, and absolve Belichick.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 19:45:09 GMT -5
One of three things is going to happen. If the league can prove the Belichick had knowledge of this, then they come down hard on the team, probably with a suspension for him and loss of draft picks for the franchise. If they can prove Brady had prior knowledge, then it's probably a $25,000 fine and we move on. If neither, then amend the rules to keep it from happening again.
Yup, that is pretty much what I am thinking. Belichick knows because of his priors, he's in deep caca if they prove he had knowledge, especially after going in front of the press today and denying it. He's definitely facing suspension if that is the case, and yeah, the franchise will lose picks for sure. They still might, even if it's only Brady - and I submit to you this: Goodell's own words when suspending Sean Payton: "Ignorance is no excuse". They never proved Payton had direct knowledge of Bounty Gate, but Goodell dealt him a 1 year suspension. Brady is very likely to face at least the fine regardless. Nobody, and I mean nobody believes he doesn't know what happened. If they don't find direct smoking gun proof, I think he gets the fine, and that's the end of it for him, since he doesn't have any history really. 25k is a slap on the wrist, and nobody will feel like Brady wasn't being done injustice even without total proof. If they do find proof though(and really, the last thing NFL wants now is for TMZ to suddenly show up with some video of somebody doing it), then Brady is going to face suspension of some kind, especially after blatantly lying at the press conference. Most of the talking heads are saying he really blew his chance to just walk away with a fine and be done with it, and absolve Belichick.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 20:06:44 GMT -5
Troy Aikman "“This whole comment by Roger Goodell based on the Saints when Sean Payton got suspended for the year, and he says ‘ignorance is no excuse,’ that’s going to come back to haunt him again,” Aikman said, via the Dallas Morning News. “That haunted him during the whole Ray Rice situation with he, himself, and now it’s going to haunt Roger Goodell in terms of what the punishment is for the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick. If ignorance is no excuse, and it wasn’t for Sean Payton. …[The Saints] did not give themselves a competitive advantage. Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they’ve cheated and given themselves an advantage. To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints.”"
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 22, 2015 20:08:57 GMT -5
I agree with mdrunning. About all the league can credibly do at this point is put new procedures in place to prevent ball tampering from happening in the future. Oh, and put Belichick on "double secret probation" because once they fix this he'll find some new way to cheat. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 20:12:59 GMT -5
because once they fix this he'll find some new way to cheat. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Completely agree. One thing, regardless of what the NFL does or doesn't do, the Patriots legacy has been burnt to ashes at this point. Some are even questioning whether or not Belichick makes the HOF on first ballot, or at all. Comparisons to Bonds and Clemens were being made.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 22, 2015 20:38:34 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:51:41 GMT -5
Troy Aikman "“This whole comment by Roger Goodell based on the Saints when Sean Payton got suspended for the year, and he says ‘ignorance is no excuse,’ that’s going to come back to haunt him again,” Aikman said, via the Dallas Morning News. “That haunted him during the whole Ray Rice situation with he, himself, and now it’s going to haunt Roger Goodell in terms of what the punishment is for the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick. If ignorance is no excuse, and it wasn’t for Sean Payton. …[The Saints] did not give themselves a competitive advantage. Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they’ve cheated and given themselves an advantage. To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints.”" Troy Aikman obviously took one too many shots to the head during his career.
The Saints didn't gain an advantage? It certainly wasn't for lack of trying since they were paying guys to attempt to knock the other team's stars out of the game. What got Peyton in hot water is that while he didn't initiate the program--that was Greg Williams--he refused to shut the program down when told to do so by both the league and Saints ownership, then lied to cover it up. The league had no choice but to come down hard on him.
Peyton put the NFL in a much bigger pickle than Belichick ever could because of the legal ramifications, particularly over concussions and post-concussion symptoms affecting its retired players. The league had to at least give the impression that it was making football "safe."
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Post by highmc2 on Jan 22, 2015 21:00:35 GMT -5
It certainly makes for a good soap opera.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 21:26:11 GMT -5
It certainly makes for a good soap opera. Yep, and I'll lay you odds that the NFL won't release its findings--if any--until after the Super Bowl. Does anyone think they'll suspend Belichick or Brady for the Super Bowl even if they are proven to be complicit? Can you imagine the howls from NBC, which spent gazillions to broadcast the game, or the advertisers who spent millions more to be associated with it, if New England had to play the game from a compromised position? Ain't gonna happen.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 0:29:53 GMT -5
I agree with mdrunning. About all the league can credibly do at this point is put new procedures in place to prevent ball tampering from happening in the future. Oh, and put Belichick on "double secret probation" because once they fix this he'll find some new way to cheat. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) And if the league does take control over all game balls because of this, one result is that Brady will have made 31 new enemies, but that's the way it goes. No quarterback uses new balls in a game; they'd rather get sacked 10 times in the first quarter.
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Post by breakingbad on Jan 23, 2015 5:39:59 GMT -5
Pointing to the fact that is was a 45-7 blowout to say this didn't impact the game is ridiculous. They had a distinct advantage from the start of the game, and once they got a lead, each team plays differently.
There is just no way to know what the outcome would have been with a level playing field.
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Post by Ravenchamp on Jan 23, 2015 7:41:47 GMT -5
Either have brady sit for the game or suspend brady and the hobo for 8 games next season
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Post by alienrace on Jan 23, 2015 8:47:37 GMT -5
Pointing to the fact that is was a 45-7 blowout to say this didn't impact the game is ridiculous. They had a distinct advantage from the start of the game, and once they got a lead, each team plays differently. There is just no way to know what the outcome would have been with a level playing field. Well, I really don't think the Colts ever had a chance in that game to begin with, but I know what you are saying. The real issue is though, that there is no way in hell that was the first game they did this. Remember the Colts suspected them earlier in the year as well. I have no doubt they did the same thing many times, and especially in the divisional round, when it was much colder out and harder to grip the ball.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 23, 2015 9:19:54 GMT -5
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 23, 2015 9:27:12 GMT -5
And if the league does take control over all game balls because of this, one result is that Brady will have made 31 new enemies, but that's the way it goes. No quarterback uses new balls in a game; they'd rather get sacked 10 times in the first quarter. The league could do basic preparation, such as removing the wax coating or even roughing the laces. It could ask the 32 starters how they prep the ball and then build a list of standard preps from that, consistent with league rules. IMO, the game shouldn't be influenced by whether equipment is optimized for one side or the other, anyway. Receivers got used to not being permitted stickum, quarterbacks will get used to this.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 23, 2015 9:31:13 GMT -5
What happened with the Saints - deliberately attempting to injure players - is far, far worse that what Brady/Belichick may have done. Aikman's take is wrong. If the league can prove anything, then the punishment needs to be at least as bad as it was for spygate simply because you don't de-escalate punishments for cheating. However, nothing Brady/Belichick might have done will affect someone's future health.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 23, 2015 9:34:23 GMT -5
What happened with the Saints - deliberately attempting to injure players - is far, far worse that what Brady/Belichick may have done. Aikman's take is wrong. If the league can prove anything, then the punishment needs to be at least as bad as it was for spygate simply because you don't de-escalate punishments for cheating. However, nothing Brady/Belichick might have done will affect someone's future health. I don't disagree with you. I think Aikman's point is more that Goodell said "ignorance is not an excuse", and that those words might come back to haunt him when making a ruling that involves Belichick. His last sentence is when he veers a little to far to the extreme.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 23, 2015 10:01:34 GMT -5
Goodell says ignorance is not an excuse and then he hires a guy who is good friends with several owners to issue a report that says, in essence, that ignorance IS an excuse. He's a bad commissioner and he needs to go.
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Post by alienrace on Jan 23, 2015 10:36:54 GMT -5
Goodell says ignorance is not an excuse and then he hires a guy who is good friends with several owners to issue a report that says, in essence, that ignorance IS an excuse. He's a bad commissioner and he needs to go.No doubt about that!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 10:40:42 GMT -5
Pointing to the fact that is was a 45-7 blowout to say this didn't impact the game is ridiculous. They had a distinct advantage from the start of the game, and once they got a lead, each team plays differently. There is just no way to know what the outcome would have been with a level playing field. It's interesting to note that the Colts have been accused on more than one occasion of piping in artificial crowd noise, which is a violation of NFL rules and not simply a breach of etiquette. To be fair, they've never officially been found of any wrongdoing, but John Harbaugh alluded to it before the Ravens played the Colts in Indy this season. Chuck Pagano was not happy with Harbaugh's comments.
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