|
|
Post by microg on Jun 22, 2018 8:00:22 GMT -5
I don't really know how the Trump administration's treatment of illegal immigration truly compares to the Obama administration or even the Bush administration; particularly in how it relates to the temporary (or permanent) separation of children from their parents. But I do know that performing a high risk activity such as illegally crossing a nation's border while in the custody of children is irresponsible. Shouldn't the parents share some of the blame given that the Trump administration is merely enforcing existing law? It looks like many voters think so. Nevertheless, maybe the U.S. should detain the parents and children together; not in regular prisons, but instead using family-friendly facilities specifically built for processing illegal immigrants. This would move closer to a goal of firm, yet compassionate enforcement of the law. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/21/majority-of-voters-blame-parents-not-the-federal-g/ |
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 22, 2018 9:02:48 GMT -5
Here's the problem with that. Since they crossed illegally, no one knows who they are. They could be terrorists, using trafficked children as cover, drug mules doing the same, violent criminals escaping their country to avoid prosecution, we simply don't know. So housing children with adults that we have no idea about is a recipe for disaster. How loud do you think the morons on the Left will scream when the first child is raped, or murdered, while in one of those holding facilities?
|
|
|
|
Post by 3000fps on Jun 22, 2018 11:16:48 GMT -5
Didn't the inept fool before Trump put them in cages?  |
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 22, 2018 11:30:53 GMT -5
I'm with redleg on this.
The optics of children being separated from parents are awful. But unless these people can prove they are parents and children, holding them together creates another set of problems.
Beyond that, why should immigrant families get special treatment? When American parents are arrested, they're separated from their kids. Demanding foreigners be allowed to stay together just shows how much the left prefers non-Americans over Americans.
|
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 22, 2018 14:15:05 GMT -5
There was a case management program, where case mangers would monitor a number of undocumented aliens who had been released and ensure that they appeared for the court hearings. The program had almost, if not, 100% compliance. Why was it stopped?
Monitoring with ankle bracelets is also an effective way to monitor undocumented aliens. Either way is a lot less expensive than incarceration.
And, RJ, most Americans who are arrested are not separated from their children. Most of them are released pending trial. If convicted, they may be separated.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 22, 2018 15:43:15 GMT -5
There was a case management program, where case mangers would monitor a number of undocumented aliens who had been released and ensure that they appeared for the court hearings. The program had almost, if not, 100% compliance. Why was it stopped? Monitoring with ankle bracelets is also an effective way to monitor undocumented aliens. Either way is a lot less expensive than incarceration. And, RJ, most Americans who are arrested are not separated from their children. Most of them are released pending trial. If convicted, they may be separated. Immigrants are not routinely separated from their children when they come to a legal border crossing and request asylum. Oh, and unless you think the police routinely take children to jail with their parents... of course Americans who commit crimes are routinely separated from their children. |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 22, 2018 15:56:05 GMT -5
No, RJ, please don't continue to show your ignorance. Americans who commit crimes are not routinely separated from their children. Most are granted bail pending trial and remain with their children. Most persons convicted are fined, placed on probation. A small minority are actually incarcerated, at which time they are separated from their children. But your statement, on face value, is wrong. . . as usual.
|
|
|
|
Post by microg on Jun 22, 2018 17:01:55 GMT -5
No, RJ, please don't continue to show your ignorance. Americans who commit crimes are not routinely separated from their children. Most are granted bail pending trial and remain with their children. Most persons convicted are fined, placed on probation. A small minority are actually incarcerated, at which time they are separated from their children. But your statement, on face value, is wrong. . . as usual. Well technically, Americans who commit crimes would be separated from their children the time of arrest until their bail hearing. Granted, it is typically not a long time. |
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 22, 2018 17:45:57 GMT -5
No, RJ, please don't continue to show your ignorance. Americans who commit crimes are not routinely separated from their children. Most are granted bail pending trial and remain with their children. Most persons convicted are fined, placed on probation. A small minority are actually incarcerated, at which time they are separated from their children. But your statement, on face value, is wrong. . . as usual. Well technically, Americans who commit crimes would be separated from their children the time of arrest until their bail hearing. Granted, it is typically not a long time. And then again if they are sentenced to serve a jail term. I can’t find a report anywhere that gives an estimate of the amount of time families are typically separated. Knowing that information would probably completely destroy the narrative, because it would probably turn out the vast majority weren’t being separated for more than 48 hours or so. The Flores Consent Decree limits it to 20 days. Which wouldn’t be all that unusual for an American who was arrested and couldn’t post bail. The problem is the government is being put in an impossible position by irresponsible immigrants. If you go hire coyotes to get you and your young children across the border illegally, honestly YOU SHOULD BE SEPARATED FROM YOUR KIDS. PERMANENTLY. BECAUSE THAT’S CHILD ABUSE. The assumption should be that children who are being transported illegally across the border are being trafficked. Until it is proven otherwise, the kids should be separated. Immigrants coming across at a normal port of entry aren’t being separated. The sad and effed up part of this is the left is using this not to help the immigrants, but to get Trump. |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 22, 2018 18:21:08 GMT -5
I take issue with 3rd your third paragraph. What about the persons coming to an entry point and being denied asylum because of Sessions' new rules? Don't they got detained and their kids locked up?
You ask about time served. In the US, the average time served has been increasing. Data is hard to find and compare because of how various states compile it. But the average time served seems to be somewhere between 7.5 and 10 years for inmates in prisons. Jails serve a different population and the time served is probably, on average, somewhere under a year.
And remember, too, when we're talking about US citizens being sent to prison or jail, the kids generally stay home. When we're talking about undocumented aliens, the kids are put into a facility by themselves, them sometimes moved to foster homes which can be thousands of miles from the initial point of entry.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 22, 2018 18:34:19 GMT -5
I take issue with 3rd your third paragraph. What about the persons coming to an entry point and being denied asylum because of Sessions' new rules? Don't they got detained and their kids locked up? No. They get turned away. See: WaPoThey only get detained when they come across illegally. The kids are separated from their jailed parent. If it’s a single parent, and there’s no family available, they go to foster care. When this happens in reverse, and American parents attempt to take their kids across an international border without the knowledge of the other parent, that’s a serious crime. Why don’t Democrats have the same concern for kids from other countries? You know, unless the kid is from Cuba and named Elian Gonzales? You remember him, don’t you? The little kid the Clinton administration sent back to Cuba at rifle point? Oh yeah. That was Clinton, and this is Trump, who must be destroyed at any cost. |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 22, 2018 21:54:12 GMT -5
Why don't Democrats have the same concern for kids from other countries? I think it's clear that they do. The real question is why don't you regressives have any concern for them?
|
|
|
|
Post by microg on Jun 23, 2018 7:05:36 GMT -5
I wonder how much concern our politicians will have about the children after the 2018 elections? And after the 2020 elections if Trump is successfully unseated.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 23, 2018 7:44:24 GMT -5
Why don't Democrats have the same concern for kids from other countries? I think it's clear that they do. The real question is why don't you regressives have any concern for them? Clearly the Democrats don’t. It was Obama that created the impression south of the border that we wouldn’t enforce our immigration laws. Don’t you remember all of the unaccompanied minors that arrived in the US in droves just a few years ago? It was the Trump administration crackdown that reduced the number of people trying to cross the border. There’s an international law called The Hague Convention which is intended to prevent parental kidnapping (and child sex trafficking) across international borders. In order to meet our obligations under that treaty, we have an obligation to look into each of these cases. It’s a process that takes some time, and it will take more time when irresponsible foreign parents overwhelm the system. And it should lead to separation, until actual parents can be sorted out from traffickers. |
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 23, 2018 7:50:10 GMT -5
I wonder how much concern our politicians will have about the children after the 2018 elections? And after the 2020 elections if Trump is successfully unseated. They didn’t care about the mass of unaccompanied minors that arrived at our border when Obama unleashed DACA. They only care about this as a means to slam Trump. And they're just thrilled to do MS-13's bidding if it means Trump only gets one term. |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 23, 2018 12:16:34 GMT -5
Thanks, RJ, for giving new meaning to the phrase "compassionate consevative," a real oxymoron if there ever was one. Our failing president causes a humanitarian crisis due to his inability to govern or to think of anything other than his own image and press, and you eat it up. He continues to exaggerate a problem that isn't as severe as he wants to make it.
Clearly the incarceration of children in sub-standard conditions is going on, and it is just as clearly illegal. But I'm sure you'll just say something like, "What does it matter?"
|
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 23, 2018 12:55:39 GMT -5
I take issue with 3rd your third paragraph. What about the persons coming to an entry point and being denied asylum because of Sessions' new rules? Don't they got detained and their kids locked up? You ask about time served. In the US, the average time served has been increasing. Data is hard to find and compare because of how various states compile it. But the average time served seems to be somewhere between 7.5 and 10 years for inmates in prisons. Jails serve a different population and the time served is probably, on average, somewhere under a year. And remember, too, when we're talking about US citizens being sent to prison or jail, the kids generally stay home. When we're talking about undocumented aliens, the kids are put into a facility by themselves, them sometimes moved to foster homes which can be thousands of miles from the initial point of entry. No, they are arrested for illegally crossing the border. There is a right to request asylum, there is no right to have it granted. If they want asylum, they can request it in their home country, through an embassy. |
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 23, 2018 14:17:07 GMT -5
Thanks, RJ, for giving new meaning to the phrase "compassionate consevative," a real oxymoron if there ever was one. Our failing president causes a humanitarian crisis due to his inability to govern or to think of anything other than his own image and press, and you eat it up. He continues to exaggerate a problem that isn't as severe as he wants to make it. Clearly the incarceration of children in sub-standard conditions is going on, and it is just as clearly illegal. But I'm sure you'll just say something like, "What does it matter?" It is indeed compassionate to separate children from abusive parents. And if you're smuggling a child through a desert across an international border at 2am, you're an abusive parent. If you're a parent at all, and not a child sex trafficker. It was Obama that created this crisis by signalling that the US wasn't going to enforce its border anymore. Stating that the children are being incarcerated in sub-standard conditions only demonstrates that this is about sticking to to Trump for you, and not about reality. |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 23, 2018 14:40:50 GMT -5
While it may be compassionate to separate children from abusive children, there's no evidence that all of these children have abusive parents. Sounds more like more of your and the failing president's xenophobia and white supremacy.
Why do you continue to insist that anyone trying to cross the border with a child is a drug trafficker, smuggler, abusive parent? A lot of people trying to get here are doing so to avoid gangs, domestic abuse, extremely poor living conditioins. Shouldn't the US be a nation of compassion, as we have been almost since our founding?
|
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 23, 2018 21:08:57 GMT -5
Why don't Democrats have the same concern for kids from other countries? I think it's clear that they do. The real question is why don't you regressives have any concern for them? Why are the Party of the KKK so much more concerned with illegal aliens, and their anchor babies, or their weaponized offspring, or even the fake families, than they are about Americans? After all, they are hysterically 'supportive' of Planned Parenthood, the largest purveyor of genocide in the Western World. |
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 23, 2018 21:10:25 GMT -5
Why don't Democrats have the same concern for kids from other countries? I think it's clear that they do. The real question is why don't you regressives have any concern for them? Clearly the Democrats don’t. It was Obama that created the impression south of the border that we wouldn’t enforce our immigration laws. Don’t you remember all of the unaccompanied minors that arrived in the US in droves just a few years ago? It was the Trump administration crackdown that reduced the number of people trying to cross the border. There’s an international law called The Hague Convention which is intended to prevent parental kidnapping (and child sex trafficking) across international borders. In order to meet our obligations under that treaty, we have an obligation to look into each of these cases. It’s a process that takes some time, and it will take more time when irresponsible foreign parents overwhelm the system. And it should lead to separation, until actual parents can be sorted out from traffickers. The Puppet ADVERTISED for Mexicans and Central Americans to come here. In Mexico City. In Spanish. This entire embroglio is the result of the criminality of The Puppet. |
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 23, 2018 21:15:05 GMT -5
Thanks, RJ, for giving new meaning to the phrase "compassionate consevative," a real oxymoron if there ever was one. Our failing president causes a humanitarian crisis due to his inability to govern or to think of anything other than his own image and press, and you eat it up. He continues to exaggerate a problem that isn't as severe as he wants to make it. Clearly the incarceration of children in sub-standard conditions is going on, and it is just as clearly illegal. But I'm sure you'll just say something like, "What does it matter?" No, the 'humanitarian crisis' was created by The Puppet and his Merry Marxists. Trump is trying to repair the abomination that The Puppet left him. There is no right for anyone to "immigrate" to this country. The fact that we are using our resources, time, and money to weed out the dangerous, the criminals from their own country, the abusive parents, the coyotes or the drug smugglers using someone else's kids as a shield is a privilege, not a right. What we should do is simply send them all back to where they came from, and tell them if they want 'asylum', they can apply for it in their own country, at one of our embassies. End of problem. As for the "substandard conditions", no, those pictures were taken in 2014 and 2015. Who was allegedly President, then? |
|
|
|
Post by redleg on Jun 23, 2018 21:17:52 GMT -5
While it may be compassionate to separate children from abusive children, there's no evidence that all of these children have abusive parents. Sounds more like more of your and the failing president's xenophobia and white supremacy. Why do you continue to insist that anyone trying to cross the border with a child is a drug trafficker, smuggler, abusive parent? A lot of people trying to get here are doing so to avoid gangs, domestic abuse, extremely poor living conditioins. Shouldn't the US be a nation of compassion, as we have been almost since our founding? But we don't know, until we have vetted them. That means separating them until the vetting is complete. Were just one kid killed by his "parent" while under US custody, you would have real riots in the streets by the Communists, and the Party of the KKK (sorry, that's redundant). The goal for the Party of the KKK is to overload the system, then start a civil war when the system breaks down. They want kids dead, or abandoned, or even just abused, which is why The Puppet released kids to child abusers, not bothering to vet anyone he released the kids to. |
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Jun 23, 2018 21:54:36 GMT -5
While it may be compassionate to separate children from abusive children, there's no evidence that all of these children have abusive parents. Sounds more like more of your and the failing president's xenophobia and white supremacy. Why do you continue to insist that anyone trying to cross the border with a child is a drug trafficker, smuggler, abusive parent? A lot of people trying to get here are doing so to avoid gangs, domestic abuse, extremely poor living conditioins. Shouldn't the US be a nation of compassion, as we have been almost since our founding? Because illegally crossing an international border with a child is child abuse. Just like anyone else who commits a crime with a child. Why are you pretending child sex trafficking doesn't exist? Why are you covering for MS-13? |
|
|
|
Post by palealeman on Jun 24, 2018 11:46:59 GMT -5
Interesting new definition, RJ. However, since you're not an attorney or even a law student, and since you've proven numerous times that you have little idea of what the law holds, your new definition is bunk. A woman bringing her child across a border is a child abuser? Bunk.
And I don't pretend that sex trafficking doesn't exist, nor am I covering for MS-13. But I don't believe everyone try to cross a border is a child trafficker, nor do I believe that everyone trying to cross a border is a member of any gang.
The more important question is why do you believe that? Why do you believe that anyone crossing a border with a child is a child abuser and sex trafficker? Why do you believe they're all members of MS-13? Is it your xenophobia or your white supremacy?
|
|
