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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 21:52:33 GMT -5
I doubt the government has a problem with citizens getting hurt. They backed down because many Americans sympathize with this rancher, seeing the U.S. government as heavy handed when it comes to things like land use rights. The number of protesters would increase exponentially if this were to continue. The congresscritters would like to keep their cushy jobs in office. Not true... they were concerned about the federal agents attempting to uphold the law... Bundy had said he would use force against them if they tried to force him to comply with the law... and he had 30,000 idiots there to see that he continued to break the law... the United States of America has had title to that land since 1848... when it was obtained from Mexico... The government was breaking the law. They have no authority to claim that land. Which means they have no claim to the money.
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 21:57:30 GMT -5
It is federal property... belonging to all of us... but managed by the federal government on our behalf... and I'm glad about that... I love to visit such land... and have... many times... By what authority does the Federal government "own" that property? Mexico ceded the land to the U.S. Bundy claims the federal government is illegitimate and that he does not have to pay fees, taxes, or obey federal court orders... sounds like Montana all over again...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 21:58:37 GMT -5
Sounds like the guy in Miles City, MT who borrowed several hundred thousand dollars and bought farm equipment with it... then refused to pay the money back because he said it was Federal Reserve money... what an idiot... this is federally managed land... part of the Lake Meade National Recreation Area... the state of Nevada doesn't maintain or manage it... You don't pay the state a fee when you visit a National Park... National Recreation Area, or National Monument... they are maintained by the federal government... for the enjoyment of ALL of us... not just those within those states... By what authority? I already posted the U.S. code that applies...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:00:15 GMT -5
16 U.S. Code § 1a–1 - National Park System Since they aren't building forts, arsenals, magazines, docks, or shipyards, there is no law. Otherwise, they are in violation of the Constitution. The Code applies to the National Park System...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:01:54 GMT -5
And the 5,000 idiots from "militias" from several states coming to Nevada in his defense... most of them armed... Sad that so many think they want such chaos... people making their own laws... like those apocalyptic movies we see where the people left ride around in armored vehicles... looting... and trying to find food for themselves... The Puppet and his Merry Marxists have been making up their own laws for at least 5 years. So, if the government can make up laws, why can't the citizens? Sounds like a good argument for Common Law... may be you should move to Cascade, Montana... they'd love you there...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:07:49 GMT -5
Sad that one guy refuses to pay his grazing fees on federal land when 1,600 other cattle farmers do... and get's away with it for 20 years... and has support... Desert cowboy just told you, there are only 3 left in that area, now. Yes... and Bundy is one of the three...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:31:31 GMT -5
Only because the rancher had threatened to use force against them first... they had the right to protect themselves... 200 armed government agents... 30,000 armed militants... Whom did he threaten? If there weren't any BLM agents, then how did he threaten anyone He threatened any and all federal agents in at least two interviews with news outlets...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:32:25 GMT -5
I'm sure the reason the government backed down this time was to prevent 30.000 morons from hurting themselves and others. If this guy has refused to pay his fees for 20 years, then the majority of America should be against him. Most of us don't own a ranch with more than 1000 cows, but we all pay our taxes anyway, and those fees he owes are for the costs used to maintain the federal land, which is there for all of us, not just Bundy and his cows. I hope when the feds come back, they take all of his property from him too. Please show me the authority for it to be "Federal land". It was ceded to the United States by Mexico in 1848...
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 13, 2014 22:34:08 GMT -5
Not true... they were concerned about the federal agents attempting to uphold the law... Bundy had said he would use force against them if they tried to force him to comply with the law... and he had 30,000 idiots there to see that he continued to break the law... the United States of America has had title to that land since 1848... when it was obtained from Mexico... The government was breaking the law. They have no authority to claim that land. Which means they have no claim to the money. Bull, Redleg... I suppose all those National Park entrance fees and even my Golden Passport fee is illegal... huh?...
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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 23:29:15 GMT -5
I already posted the U.S. code that applies... Are they building forts? Magazines? Arsenals? Docks? Government buildings? If not, then there is no US code that applies, because it violates the Constitution.
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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 23:30:29 GMT -5
Since they aren't building forts, arsenals, magazines, docks, or shipyards, there is no law. Otherwise, they are in violation of the Constitution. The Code applies to the National Park System... There is no legal "national park system", unless the state governments that owned that land ceded it, in legislature to the Feds. And unless the Feds are building forts, ect, on that land, they have no authority to have it.
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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 23:32:48 GMT -5
The Puppet and his Merry Marxists have been making up their own laws for at least 5 years. So, if the government can make up laws, why can't the citizens? Sounds like a good argument for Common Law... may be you should move to Cascade, Montana... they'd love you there... And maybe you should wake up and realize we no longer have a legitimate government. Remember, those precedents that The Puppet and his Merry Marxist are setting, that you like so much, can also be used against you. Like a President that decides that none of the "gun" laws are to be enforced? Or that the EPA regulations shouldn't be enforced?
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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 23:33:41 GMT -5
Please show me the authority for it to be "Federal land". It was ceded to the United States by Mexico in 1848... And when it became states, that land belonged to the states. Not the Feds.
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Post by redleg on Apr 13, 2014 23:34:26 GMT -5
The government was breaking the law. They have no authority to claim that land. Which means they have no claim to the money. Bull, Redleg... I suppose tall those National Park entrance fees and even my Golden Passport fee is illegal... huh?... You can give your money to whomever you please. That doesn't make it legal for them to collect it.
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Post by Desert Cowboy on Apr 13, 2014 23:58:35 GMT -5
Bull, Redleg... I suppose tall those National Park entrance fees and even my Golden Passport fee is illegal... huh?... BLM land is NOT National Park land. Entirely different agency. I live and ride in both as they border each other. National Park Service Rangers and BLM Law Enforcement Rangers are two different animals. National Parks are reserves/preserves. BLM lands are Federally 'claimed' (and posted). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management We generally regard BLM as an absentee landlord... bureaucratic pain in the ass... despite their public hype and propaganda. There no National Park fee (here) and no way to enforce it if there were... other than the tourista's in their cars. There's so many ways in 'mounted' or afoot it'd be impossible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 7:53:23 GMT -5
Bull, Redleg... I suppose tall those National Park entrance fees and even my Golden Passport fee is illegal... huh?... BLM land is NOT National Park land. Entirely different agency. I live and ride in both as they border each other. National Park Service Rangers and BLM Law Enforcement Rangers are two different animals. National Parks are reserves/preserves. BLM lands are Federally 'claimed' (and posted). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management We generally regard BLM as an absentee landlord... bureaucratic pain in the ass... despite their public hype and propaganda. There no National Park fee (here) and no way to enforce it if there were... other than the tourista's in their cars. There's so many ways in 'mounted' or afoot it'd be impossible. Didn't know that!!! Feds are sitting on awful lot of Nevada--- 85% - having a state and local government almost seems silly. It makes sense that those that live there have to deal with Feds as landlords when only 15% of the land is in private hands- there really is no other to make a living from the land. And if your landlord owns 85% of the land, you have to abide by their terms no matter what or lose your livelihood, this type of confrontation is bound to occur- you can't move or flee and keep your livelihood, and you have no real leverage with a landlord that big. Until now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 7:56:56 GMT -5
Government should not be a landlord.
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Post by kashmir on Apr 14, 2014 9:00:50 GMT -5
There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy singlehandedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero. Who is paying you to go around and make all these posts???
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 14, 2014 9:01:50 GMT -5
Bull, Redleg... I suppose tall those National Park entrance fees and even my Golden Passport fee is illegal... huh?... BLM land is NOT National Park land. Entirely different agency. I live and ride in both as they border each other. National Park Service Rangers and BLM Law Enforcement Rangers are two different animals. National Parks are reserves/preserves. BLM lands are Federally 'claimed' (and posted). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management We generally regard BLM as an absentee landlord... bureaucratic pain in the ass... despite their public hype and propaganda. There no National Park fee (here) and no way to enforce it if there were... other than the tourista's in their cars. There's so many ways in 'mounted' or afoot it'd be impossible. I know that... and have used both... I said that part of the area in question was within the Lake Meade National Recreation Area... I realize BLM land is different... And yes, I have been there more than once... but not so far south of Bunkerville and east of Overton in the Gold Butte area...
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Apr 14, 2014 9:08:01 GMT -5
There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy singlehandedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero. Who is paying you to go around and make all these posts??? Probably the same people who are paying you.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Apr 14, 2014 9:09:25 GMT -5
It turns out that these tortoises are not native to the area, they were displaced from their normal habitat by all the development, seems that the feds should be evicting those who now live in the tortoise's natural habitat.
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Post by kashmir on Apr 14, 2014 9:11:05 GMT -5
Who is paying you to go around and make all these posts??? Probably the same people who are paying you. This poster came on and has made 9 posts about this cattle rancher. He is a shill, and just because you agree with his erroneous stance doesn't make him anymore than what he is, a shill. I couldn't take money for posting, it would be like taking candy from a baby. You guys are a hoot!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 9:12:41 GMT -5
It turns out that these tortoises are not native to the area, they were displaced from their normal habitat by all the development, seems that the feds should be evicting those who now live in the tortoise's natural habitat. I heard that removing the cattle would cause the tortoises to die as they eat the cow pies.
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Post by kashmir on Apr 14, 2014 9:19:39 GMT -5
Cliven Bundy is a Big Fat Million Dollar Welfare Dead Beat! I mean, if you really look at the facts of the case at the heart of his dispute with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees he's refused to pay for the last 20 years - Cliven Bundy has long enjoyed the benefit of Federal Resources without actually meeting the requirements for access to those resources. The issue has been litigated in court, more than once, and Bundy has lost each time on the merits of his case. He is NOT ENTITLED to access to this land. It doesn't belong to him. In fact that land Belongs to ME and to every other citizen of the United States. That's MY Land that his cows have been grazing on for 20 years and he OWES ME and the rest of the American People for it. Cliven Bundy is a God Damn [Corporate] Benefits Dead Beat and a THEIF. He's a Moocher! A Lazy Taker!. He should pay the frack up, or else face jail. I mean isn't that how all those good Americans on Fox News like Eric Bolling are constantly telling us about people who Improperly take Federal Benefits! Just listen. What make Cliven Bundy any different from all the guys who go out and buy Weed, Booze and Lap Dances using an EBT Card? [Never mind the fact that if you can get cash via E.B.T., you can legally spend it on anything you like!] If they should be strung up by the heels for ripping off the American Public, why shouldn't he? I mean, seriously. www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/13/1291642/-Cliven-Bundy-is-a-Big-Fat-Million-Dollar-Welfare-Dead-Beat
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Post by aboutwell on Apr 14, 2014 9:20:46 GMT -5
It turns out that these tortoises are not native to the area, they were displaced from their normal habitat by all the development, seems that the feds should be evicting those who now live in the tortoise's natural habitat. I heard that removing the cattle would cause the tortoises to die as they eat the cow pies. The intent was not to remove all the cattle... only reduce them to 150...
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