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Post by winston on Dec 10, 2014 15:18:33 GMT -5
You're condemning someone for speaking the truth, but not those who engaged in the torture? That's an interesting perspective. Bush had an opportunity to prevent this from ever happening. If you think about it, you'll know what he could have done to prevent this. All fallout from this report - ALL OF IT - rests on Bush's shoulders. Yes, it does. And it proves that Bush was interested in protecting the country, while The Puppet is interested in destroying it.
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Post by winston on Dec 10, 2014 15:20:22 GMT -5
You're condemning someone for speaking the truth, but not those who engaged in the torture? That's an interesting perspective. Bush had an opportunity to prevent this from ever happening. If you think about it, you'll know what he could have done to prevent this. All fallout from this report - ALL OF IT - rests on Bush's shoulders. Yes, it does. And it proves that Bush was interested in protecting the country, while The Puppet is interested in destroying it. It proves you have unorthodox thought patterens
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Post by stevez51 on Dec 10, 2014 15:55:47 GMT -5
Yes, it does. And it proves that Bush was interested in protecting the country, while The Puppet is interested in destroying it. It proves you have unorthodox thought patterens Looking for something to do .. ? What are your thoughts ....
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Post by rocketwolf on Dec 10, 2014 17:10:34 GMT -5
I am against government torture BECAUSE Government spying on US citizens is supposed to be against the law. Well we have seen how well that prohibition is working. So do you think that government torture of US citizens is impossible in the future? If you do I go a very large and long bridge across the Bay Ill sell you for a dollar. Publishing this report will do nothing to stop torture, it has already been illegal. I know that, that's what makes it scarey
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 10, 2014 18:50:00 GMT -5
Publishing this report will do nothing to stop torture, it has already been illegal. It might prevent a politician who is concerned about his legacy from endorsing or authorizing torture. Of course, Bush is already held in such contempt by everyone except a handful of Republican partisans that it's not going to damage him further. Cheney, likewise. Ideally, I'd like to send both those men to the ICC for trial, and see how that goes for them. Just like we'd want to do for some Third World dictator we caught torturing people. But no president will authorize that: those of the same party will close ranks, and those of the other party will refuse for fear that when the office changes hands again they'll be shipped off - purely political moves. It would be quite hilarious to see Bush and Cheney try to defend themselves on the world stage, though.
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Post by Ranger John on Dec 10, 2014 19:11:30 GMT -5
Publishing this report will do nothing to stop torture, it has already been illegal. It might prevent a politician who is concerned about his legacy from endorsing or authorizing torture. Of course, Bush is already held in such contempt by everyone except a handful of Republican partisans that it's not going to damage him further. Cheney, likewise. Ideally, I'd like to send both those men to the ICC for trial, and see how that goes for them. Just like we'd want to do for some Third World dictator we caught torturing people. But no president will authorize that: those of the same party will close ranks, and those of the other party will refuse for fear that when the office changes hands again they'll be shipped off - purely political moves. It would be quite hilarious to see Bush and Cheney try to defend themselves on the world stage, though. It wouldn't matter if they did go to the ICC. That court is so dysfunctional both Bush and Cheney will be closing in on 300 years old by the time they're convicted of anything. It's hilarious watching the ICC try to defend it's continued existence on the world stage.
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Post by aponderer on Dec 10, 2014 19:30:28 GMT -5
In our "torturing" people in the last dozen years, just how many fingernails have we pulled out, or fingers have we lopped off, or hands/feet have we lopped off, or arms/legs have we lopped off, or backs broken on the racks, or people drowned, or electrocuted, or body parts have we burned off (either by flame, electricity, or other methods), beheaded, or smeared with pig fat, buried in pig skins, etc., etc.?
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Post by redleg on Dec 10, 2014 20:23:08 GMT -5
Publishing this report will do nothing to stop torture, it has already been illegal. It might prevent a politician who is concerned about his legacy from endorsing or authorizing torture. Of course, Bush is already held in such contempt by everyone except a handful of Republican partisans that it's not going to damage him further. Cheney, likewise. Ideally, I'd like to send both those men to the ICC for trial, and see how that goes for them. Just like we'd want to do for some Third World dictator we caught torturing people. But no president will authorize that: those of the same party will close ranks, and those of the other party will refuse for fear that when the office changes hands again they'll be shipped off - purely political moves. It would be quite hilarious to see Bush and Cheney try to defend themselves on the world stage, though. Really? Would you include Clinton in that, since he's the one that invented "rendition"? And the "torture" used in this report is less severe than most college students "endure" during their classes with Leftist professors, or on weekends partying. "Speaking loudly" to terrorists? Sleep deprivation? "Humiliation"? Really? That's what "torture" has become? Sounds like what the Left is doing to rape, defining it downward til it has no meaning any more.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 10, 2014 20:48:21 GMT -5
Really? Would you include Clinton in that, since he's the one that invented "rendition"? Sure. Outsourcing torture is *at least* as bad as doing it yourself. And the "torture" used in this report is less severe than most college students "endure" during their classes with Leftist professors, or on weekends partying. "Speaking loudly" to terrorists? Sleep deprivation? "Humiliation"? Really? That's what "torture" has become? Sounds like what the Left is doing to rape, defining it downward til it has no meaning any more. A little more than those things was done. However, from your earlier thread I already know you're okay with torture, so no need to further illustrate that point. Save those arguments in case you're right and you have to explain your position after you die.
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Post by aponderer on Dec 11, 2014 0:44:37 GMT -5
Really? Would you include Clinton in that, since he's the one that invented "rendition"? Sure. Outsourcing torture is *at least* as bad as doing it yourself. And the "torture" used in this report is less severe than most college students "endure" during their classes with Leftist professors, or on weekends partying. "Speaking loudly" to terrorists? Sleep deprivation? "Humiliation"? Really? That's what "torture" has become? Sounds like what the Left is doing to rape, defining it downward til it has no meaning any more. A little more than those things was done.However, from your earlier thread I already know you're okay with torture, so no need to further illustrate that point. Save those arguments in case you're right and you have to explain your position after you die. Such as?
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Dec 11, 2014 8:24:02 GMT -5
Publishing this report will do nothing to stop torture, it has already been illegal. It might prevent a politician who is concerned about his legacy from endorsing or authorizing torture. Of course, Bush is already held in such contempt by everyone except a handful of Republican partisans that it's not going to damage him further. Cheney, likewise. Ideally, I'd like to send both those men to the ICC for trial, and see how that goes for them. Just like we'd want to do for some Third World dictator we caught torturing people. But no president will authorize that: those of the same party will close ranks, and those of the other party will refuse for fear that when the office changes hands again they'll be shipped off - purely political moves. It would be quite hilarious to see Bush and Cheney try to defend themselves on the world stage, though. Send Obama with them for his use of drones to kill innocent civilians.
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Post by Ranger John on Dec 11, 2014 12:42:53 GMT -5
It might prevent a politician who is concerned about his legacy from endorsing or authorizing torture. Of course, Bush is already held in such contempt by everyone except a handful of Republican partisans that it's not going to damage him further. Cheney, likewise. Ideally, I'd like to send both those men to the ICC for trial, and see how that goes for them. Just like we'd want to do for some Third World dictator we caught torturing people. But no president will authorize that: those of the same party will close ranks, and those of the other party will refuse for fear that when the office changes hands again they'll be shipped off - purely political moves. It would be quite hilarious to see Bush and Cheney try to defend themselves on the world stage, though. Send Obama with them for his use of drones to kill innocent civilians. Well, you know... For the people who wrote this report, roughing up terrorists a little bit to get information out of them is far worse than killing them and losing any chance of learning their plans.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 11, 2014 14:55:41 GMT -5
Would you like to have a forced enema? With your ground up lunch? That was done to at least some of the detainees. And there's waterboarding, which I regard as torture even if redleg does not (although he seems to regard a lot of things as okay when they're being done to someone else that I suspect he wouldn't want done to him). Don't make light of sleep deprivation and sensory overload. They're not pleasant at all. Torture degrades us. I don't want the government doing it. Period.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 11, 2014 14:57:01 GMT -5
Send Obama with them for his use of drones to kill innocent civilians. I've got no problem with him sending drones after citizens of other countries who are our enemies. But he certainly should answer for using such methods (without due process) on citizens, and he has done that. So, yeah, send him over.
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Post by aponderer on Dec 12, 2014 6:31:18 GMT -5
Would you like to have a forced enema? With your ground up lunch? That was done to at least some of the detainees. And there's waterboarding, which I regard as torture even if redleg does not (although he seems to regard a lot of things as okay when they're being done to someone else that I suspect he wouldn't want done to him). Don't make light of sleep deprivation and sensory overload. They're not pleasant at all. Torture degrades us. I don't want the government doing it. Period. I don't see much difference between those unpleasant and stressful, psychological situations put upon terrorist suspects than the ones put upon criminal suspects, such as telling them they're going to get the chair, or lethal injection if they don't cooperate; cooperate and get, at most, life imprisonment... [ahem... if convicted... said very softly...] Such "deals" are are pretty common, and often plea bargains are criticized as not hard enough punishments.
Forced enema? I don't see much difference in that from fecal transplants. I'll willing to wager a fecal transplant is no less unpleasant. How would you like to have someone else's crap shoved up your ass? And that's an approved medical treatment.
Perhaps it's a matter of where the line is drawn as to whether or not it's "torture." In the old Salem witch hunts, they didn't waterboard anyone--they drowned 'em. I draw the line at actual injury--getting beaten up, or losing a finger, etc.--not threats of injury. But I'm not in charge. Even Bill Clinton said just after 9/11, that if the clock was ticking, he'd do what it takes.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:41:49 GMT -5
He did not. However, He did advocate standing up for Christian values, which at that time were not couched as "Christian". Nor did he advocate suicide, even by omission. That's some twisted logic. Call Alberto Gonzales, the man who beat the law until it screamed for mercy in his quest to make torture legal for his boss. I'm sure whatever law firm he works for now can use a mind capable of that kind of logic. None of you apparently see the danger in letting the government torture people. How once it decides it is done with external enemies it begins searching for them at home. This is how totalitarian states start - with the best of intentions, and people willing to give them permission. The fact that it was a Republican administration that thought torture was a good idea is almost sufficient reason by itself why that party should cease to exist. First, define "torture". What was enumerated in that "report" comes no where near "torture". It's Liberals, again, defining things down to the point they have no meaning, just to win political points. Wonder why not a single operative, or even manager from the CIA was even spoken to in imagining this "report"?
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:42:28 GMT -5
That's some twisted logic. Call Alberto Gonzales, the man who beat the law until it screamed for mercy in his quest to make torture legal for his boss. I'm sure whatever law firm he works for now can use a mind capable of that kind of logic. None of you apparently see the danger in letting the government torture people. How once it decides it is done with external enemies it begins searching for them at home. This is how totalitarian states start - with the best of intentions, and people willing to give them permission. The fact that it was a Republican administration that thought torture was a good idea is almost sufficient reason by itself why that party should cease to exist. Party identity and groupthink outweighing common sense and history.It happens on all sides, but it seems more prevalent by older folks that are so ingrained in their thought process that it becomes emotional, and therefore irrational. The very definition of the Democrat Party.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:45:42 GMT -5
So you are for cultural and national suicide, just to prevent "descending to their level"? You are engaging in moral relativism. You conflate actions without context. We didn't start this war, but we are in it, and we either win it, or lose it. And losing it means losing our country, our morals, and our lives. You claim to be an atheist. Will you still be atheist when you risk having your head removed, with a dull knife, for not converting? It strikes me redleg that some of the things in this report indicates we've already lost our morals. I join EY in having little use for those who commit violence in the name of Islam (or Christianity, or Judaism, or...), but this is not how the US wages war. Really? Have you studied WWII? WWI? The Civil War? When your nation's survival is at stake, you often do things that you detest, in the name of saving your country. When you are facing subhuman animals, that are not only willing but anxious to die, as long as they achieve the maximum damage doing it, you do whatever you can to stop them. Morality means saving the innocent, not protecting the sleep, or the "honor" of those that would kill everyone they can.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:47:21 GMT -5
LMAO! The folks who've brought you 79 investigations and reports and hearings on Benghazi because they don't like the outcome each time suddenly question this report and want it hidden? Torture is wrong. It's never been proven to gain credible intell. It makes us as bad as those folks doing the beheading. It endangers our people all over the globe. ..... How about because they have yet to get the truth out of this regime? And this wasn't a report, it was a work of fiction, built by liars, and released for no other reason than because they just got their asses handed to them in an election, and want nothing more than to damage those that won.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:48:40 GMT -5
20 key findings about CIA interrogations 1 “not an effective means of acquiring intelligence” 2 “rested on inaccurate claims of their effectiveness” 3 “brutal and far worse than the CIA represented” 4 “conditions of confinement for CIA detainees were harsher” 5 “repeatedly provided inaccurate information” 6 “actively avoided or impeded congressional oversight” 7 “impeded effective White House oversight” 8 “complicated, and in some cases impeded, the national security missions” 9 “impeded oversight by the CIA’s Office of Inspector General” 10 “coordinated the release of classified information to the media” 11 “unprepared as it began operating” 12 “deeply flawed throughout the program's duration” 13 “overwhelmingly outsourced operations” 14 “coercive interrogation techniques that had not been approved” 15 “did not conduct a comprehensive or accurate accounting of the number of individuals it detained” 16 “failed to adequately evaluate the effectiveness” 17 “rarely reprimanded or held personnel accountable” 18 “ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and objections” 19 “inherently unsustainable” 20 “damaged the United States' standing in the world” linkAll of which are lies, inaccurate, or made up, especially since they didn't interview a single operative or manager from the CIA. It was a novel, written in a vacuum, consisting of nothing but the imagination of those writing it. What this "report" actually is, is a description of The Puppet's regime, right down to the headings.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:50:57 GMT -5
Shut down the CIA, right now. It is corrupt. So is the entire Federal government. At least the CIA produces useful and actionable results.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:51:55 GMT -5
Yes, it does. And it proves that Bush was interested in protecting the country, while The Puppet is interested in destroying it. It proves you have unorthodox thought patterens Only if you are a Marxist, working to destroy the country.
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:55:11 GMT -5
Really? Would you include Clinton in that, since he's the one that invented "rendition"? Sure. Outsourcing torture is *at least* as bad as doing it yourself. And the "torture" used in this report is less severe than most college students "endure" during their classes with Leftist professors, or on weekends partying. "Speaking loudly" to terrorists? Sleep deprivation? "Humiliation"? Really? That's what "torture" has become? Sounds like what the Left is doing to rape, defining it downward til it has no meaning any more. A little more than those things was done. However, from your earlier thread I already know you're okay with torture, so no need to further illustrate that point. Save those arguments in case you're right and you have to explain your position after you die. Hmmm, "torture". How many of those "tortured" can no longer walk, write, or wipe their asses, because their hands or feet don't work? How many are more delusionally insane now than before they were "tortured"? How many lost hands, feet, or eyesight? Most of what was in this "report" is nothing more than Liberals getting hysterical because real people were trying to defend the country. It's a Democrat "report", therefore no more believable than "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor".
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Post by redleg on Dec 12, 2014 11:57:22 GMT -5
Would you like to have a forced enema? With your ground up lunch? That was done to at least some of the detainees. And there's waterboarding, which I regard as torture even if redleg does not (although he seems to regard a lot of things as okay when they're being done to someone else that I suspect he wouldn't want done to him). Don't make light of sleep deprivation and sensory overload. They're not pleasant at all. Torture degrades us. I don't want the government doing it. Period. I have gone through most of what was in this "report". It's a part of survival training. Forced enemas? What proof do the Dems have that this happened? Like most of this report, it's a work of fiction, or of hysteria, not a recital of fact. They never even talked to those that allegedly handled this "torture".
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Post by Ranger John on Dec 12, 2014 12:01:23 GMT -5
Would you like to have a forced enema? With your ground up lunch? That was done to at least some of the detainees. And there's waterboarding, which I regard as torture even if redleg does not (although he seems to regard a lot of things as okay when they're being done to someone else that I suspect he wouldn't want done to him). Don't make light of sleep deprivation and sensory overload. They're not pleasant at all. Torture degrades us. I don't want the government doing it. Period. No. They're not pleasant. But let's not confuse "unpleasant" with "torture" as doing so tends to legitimize actual torture, because we've defined the meaning out of it. Or perhaps all those college kids currently burning the midnight oil studying for their advanced physics finals, suffering from sleep deprivation and sensory overload really are being tortured.
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