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Post by Ranger John on Dec 21, 2014 15:10:15 GMT -5
To me, torture is something that leaves a permanent mark. It has to leave a legacy. The dictionary does not agree: tortureThe problem with the dictionary definition (and really most other definitions) is that everyone's definition of 'excruciating pain' is different. Nearly everyone over the course of their lives, enures excruciating pain multiple times and in multiple forms: car accidents, accidental burns, childbirth, kidney stones, snake bites, bee stings, accidental broken bones, falls, sports injuries, fights, shingles, and an almost infinite number of variations on these themes. Most people also recover from these things in fairly short order. In fact, most of these things are pretty mundane - the human body can and does handle them just fine. So if these things are similar to your definition of 'excruciating pain' you've gone and made torture mundane.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 21, 2014 16:09:30 GMT -5
Seems to me that you're trying to change the definition of torture because you know torture is wrong, and so all you've got left is to say that what we did wasn't torture. You and redleg.
I guess acknowledging that torture is wrong is a step in the correct direction. Not the right direction, though.
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Post by Ranger John on Dec 21, 2014 16:27:44 GMT -5
Seems to me that you're trying to change the definition of torture because you know torture is wrong, and so all you've got left is to say that what we did wasn't torture. You and redleg. I guess acknowledging that torture is wrong is a step in the correct direction. Not the right direction, though. On the contrary, I'm trying to keep you from defining torture down so that we're not comparing what the CIA did to KSM to what Torquemada did to anyone he thought was a heretic, or what Dr. Mengele did to the Jews. Because making that comparison would be outrageous and absurd... and frankly, evil. Clearly, it's you that's trying to re-define torture. And given that you're a-ok with the drone program, your position on what you think is torture is laughably hypocritical.
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Post by redleg on Dec 21, 2014 22:17:03 GMT -5
Seems to me that you're trying to change the definition of torture because you know torture is wrong, and so all you've got left is to say that what we did wasn't torture. You and redleg. I guess acknowledging that torture is wrong is a step in the correct direction. Not the right direction, though. Actually, you and the Marxists that produced this farce are the ones that are redefining torture, at least until THEY need it for something, of course. There is nothing in this report that even approaches "torture", any more than an unwanted kiss on the cheek is rape.
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Post by aponderer on Dec 22, 2014 4:00:54 GMT -5
To me, torture is something that leaves a permanent mark. It has to leave a legacy. The dictionary does not agree: tortureWRT extracting information from prisoners, your link states: Humiliation is not torture IMHO. Accidentally hitting ones thumb with a hammer is painful, but not torture. But smashing someone's thumb in order to extract information or break resistance, etc. is torture (the reason for the torture is the intent to extract the information). It all boils down to what one thinks the definition of torture is. And that, I think, is the crux of the problem. Reminds me of the statements, "I did not have sex with that woman" or "the meaning of is."
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Post by rentedmule on Dec 22, 2014 6:43:10 GMT -5
One of the great luxuries of a prosperous society is the use of intellect and several centuries of effort in order to codify language; so that future citizens can use their time time productively and pursue ideas and not quibble as to the relevance of their positions.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Dec 22, 2014 8:31:30 GMT -5
Humiliation is not torture IMHO. You and redleg and Ranger John are entitled to the GOP's opinion, of course. But I wonder how happy you'd be if someone tied you down and shoved things up your ass? I'll bet you'd all redefine your definition in a hurry. You know what they say: the quickest way to make a conservative is to rob a liberal - and the quickest way to make a liberal is arrest a conservative.
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Post by rentedmule on Dec 22, 2014 8:44:18 GMT -5
Humiliation is not torture IMHO. You and redleg and Ranger John are entitled to the GOP's opinion, of course. But I wonder how happy you'd be if someone tied you down and shoved things up your ass? I'll bet you'd all redefine your definition in a hurry. You know what they say: the quickest way to make a conservative is to rob a liberal - and the quickest way to make a liberal is arrest a conservative. I'm not sure that conservative and GOP should be in any way entangled.
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Post by aponderer on Dec 22, 2014 9:26:44 GMT -5
Humiliation is not torture IMHO. You and redleg and Ranger John are entitled to the GOP's opinion, of course. But I wonder how happy you'd be if someone tied you down and shoved things up your ass? I'll bet you'd all redefine your definition in a hurry. You know what they say: the quickest way to make a conservative is to rob a liberal - and the quickest way to make a liberal is arrest a conservative. Then, what is the quickest way to make a Libertarian?
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Post by Ranger John on Dec 22, 2014 11:26:09 GMT -5
Humiliation is not torture IMHO. You and redleg and Ranger John are entitled to the GOP's opinion, of course. But I wonder how happy you'd be if someone tied you down and shoved things up your ass? I'll bet you'd all redefine your definition in a hurry. You know what they say: the quickest way to make a conservative is to rob a liberal - and the quickest way to make a liberal is arrest a conservative. What sort of world do you live in where doing something mean, nasty and unpleasant to someone else is always torture? Though I will note we've come a long way from water boarding. If it were within this board's TOS, I'm sure I could find personal ads for people willing to pay you to tie them down and stuff things up their ass.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Dec 22, 2014 13:27:50 GMT -5
You and redleg and Ranger John are entitled to the GOP's opinion, of course. But I wonder how happy you'd be if someone tied you down and shoved things up your ass? I'll bet you'd all redefine your definition in a hurry. You know what they say: the quickest way to make a conservative is to rob a liberal - and the quickest way to make a liberal is arrest a conservative. Then, what is the quickest way to make a Libertarian? Having either Liberals, or Conservatives in total control.
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Post by rentedmule on Dec 23, 2014 6:24:03 GMT -5
Some people wish to mess with others. THEY are the ones who covet 'total control'.
Some people do not wish to mess with others. Those folk are scorned by the tribalists. (some one has to do the work in a society!)
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