|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 20:37:27 GMT -5
There is not such thing as free. Not even freedom. If we don't do something soon to take it back, we'll soon be no better off than Cuba. Lol. That's deep.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 20:40:54 GMT -5
Agreed paradigm. The fact I have my OWN bills to pay is lost.
|
|
|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 20:42:51 GMT -5
Agreed paradigm. The fact I have my OWN bills to pay is lost. What? Lost by whom? What the heck are you babbling about?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 20:54:53 GMT -5
Agreed paradigm. The fact I have my OWN bills to pay is lost. Again, that fact is lost on the limousine liberals who believe that the middle class should handle ALL of "the sick, the poor, the deadbeat, the druggies and drunks; god forbid that the Kennedys, the Pelosi's, the Reid's and Gores' should have to pay THEIR share!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 20:58:32 GMT -5
Agreed paradigm. The fact I have my OWN bills to pay is lost. Again, that fact is lost on the limousine liberals who believe that the middle class should handle ALL of "the sick, the poor, the deadbeat, the druggies and drunks; god forbid that the Kennedys, the Pelosi's, the Reid's and Gores' should have to pay THEIR share! To further that is the assumption that without government intervention people on their own are not be willing to help those in need. I was not raised that way. Government needs to back off.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 21:00:12 GMT -5
Well said, Mom.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:01:37 GMT -5
They REALLY should have taken the GOP up on that offer to delay everything for a year. Of course, the way this is going, I doubt a year will be enough. Here's how I see it. The website isn't going to be available by the end of the month. The man Barry's put in place to fix it is either sandbagging or is honest in that it's not going to be ready. So...they'll be at a crossroads. Live with the arrogance that got them here and press on with pride, or delay the individual mandate - which is not without its own challenges. Does Obama unilaterally wave off the mandate like he did the business mandate, or does he do the right thing and go to Congress? Should Republicans help? Here's how douger sees it playing out. If the GOP says "own it," the Dems will accuse them of wringing their hands over people's pain, particularly since they offered a delay during the shutdown. If they do help Democrats, there should be strings. All aspects of Obamacare need to be online and available on July 1st. The website, the mandates, all of the waivers...every bit of it. If it can't be, then Obamacare dies. All of it. Then hope that the insurance market isn't so screwed up that it can't recover. I think this is entirely reasonable. I think the GOP does need to cooperate, but that cooperation should come with a price. And I think you're also right to say 'either get it functional by a reasonable date (July 1 works for me), or accept the fact that it's not going to work, and kill it off.' The thing of it is, I don't see the democrats or Obama doing anything but pressing on and pretending everything is just fine.
|
|
|
Post by douger on Nov 11, 2013 21:05:27 GMT -5
Here's how I see it. The website isn't going to be available by the end of the month. The man Barry's put in place to fix it is either sandbagging or is honest in that it's not going to be ready. So...they'll be at a crossroads. Live with the arrogance that got them here and press on with pride, or delay the individual mandate - which is not without its own challenges. Does Obama unilaterally wave off the mandate like he did the business mandate, or does he do the right thing and go to Congress? Should Republicans help? Here's how douger sees it playing out. If the GOP says "own it," the Dems will accuse them of wringing their hands over people's pain, particularly since they offered a delay during the shutdown. If they do help Democrats, there should be strings. All aspects of Obamacare need to be online and available on July 1st. The website, the mandates, all of the waivers...every bit of it. If it can't be, then Obamacare dies. All of it. Then hope that the insurance market isn't so screwed up that it can't recover. I think this is entirely reasonable. I think the GOP does need to cooperate, but that cooperation should come with a price. And I think you're also right to say 'either get it functional by a reasonable date (July 1 works for me), or accept the fact that it's not going to work, and kill it off.' The thing of it is, I don't see the democrats or Obama doing anything but pressing on and pretending everything is just fine. The price may be too high for Democrats to pay. Single payer has been a liberal wet dream for a very long time. Obamacare was simply a paver on the way to single payer. If Obamacare dies, their dream dies with it.
|
|
|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 21:06:40 GMT -5
Agreed paradigm. The fact I have my OWN bills to pay is lost. Again, that fact is lost on the limousine liberals who believe that the middle class should handle ALL of "the sick, the poor, the deadbeat, the druggies and drunks; god forbid that the Kennedys, the Pelosi's, the Reid's and Gores' should have to pay THEIR share! I don't know anyone who thinks like that. You guys need to make up boogymen all the time. Fear! Fear!
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:07:25 GMT -5
I think this is entirely reasonable. I think the GOP does need to cooperate, but that cooperation should come with a price. And I think you're also right to say 'either get it functional by a reasonable date (July 1 works for me), or accept the fact that it's not going to work, and kill it off.' The thing of it is, I don't see the democrats or Obama doing anything but pressing on and pretending everything is just fine. The price may be too high for Democrats to pay. Single payer has been a liberal wet dream for a very long time. Obamacare was simply a paver on the way to single payer. If Obamacare dies, their dream dies with it. Again you're right re: single payer. But, what is the likelihood of them EVER getting that through congress with this mess around their necks?
|
|
|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 21:08:08 GMT -5
I think this is entirely reasonable. I think the GOP does need to cooperate, but that cooperation should come with a price. And I think you're also right to say 'either get it functional by a reasonable date (July 1 works for me), or accept the fact that it's not going to work, and kill it off.' The thing of it is, I don't see the democrats or Obama doing anything but pressing on and pretending everything is just fine. The price may be too high for Democrats to pay. Single payer has been a liberal wet dream for a very long time. Obamacare was simply a paver on the way to single payer. If Obamacare dies, their dream dies with it. The fonts are not even capable of being big enough to show what a huge IF! that is for you guys.
|
|
|
Post by drjohnnyfever on Nov 11, 2013 21:20:35 GMT -5
The price may be too high for Democrats to pay. Single payer has been a liberal wet dream for a very long time. Obamacare was simply a paver on the way to single payer. If Obamacare dies, their dream dies with it. Again you're right re: single payer. But, what is the likelihood of them EVER getting that through congress with this mess around their necks? Easy-they just pass another 2,000 pages of "affordable care" and make it law that we all play....voila. Of course that ain't gonna happen without a senate majority (and possibly with) which the dems may have just lost.....they're going to get hammered in 14 and barry is becoming toxic.
|
|
|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 21:23:26 GMT -5
Good luck ! Keep an open mind!
|
|
|
Post by Evil Yoda on Nov 11, 2013 21:24:31 GMT -5
The Republican bill is purely to generate political capital. Inasmuch as Democrats also do this (Obama shamelessly exploited the Sandy Hook tragedy), it's hard to complain about it. But let's not pretend it comes from concern for what people are going through. As douger points out the Democrats rung the bell and it can't be unrung. The Republicans best strategy at this point is to tell people, "Hey, you wanted this. Well, you got it. It's a little late to decide you don't have the belly for it." Except in a politer and more politically adroit way. The point is to make sure people remember in November who did this to them.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:25:02 GMT -5
Again you're right re: single payer. But, what is the likelihood of them EVER getting that through congress with this mess around their necks? Easy-they just pass another 2,000 pages of "affordable care" and make it law that we all play....voila. Of course that ain't gonna happen without a senate majority (and possibly with) which the dems may have just lost.....they're going to get hammered in 14 and barry is becoming toxic. They'll need to get the House lined up for that, and that's not going to happen either anytime soon. If they start talking about expanding Obamacare, they'll be permanently out of power.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:25:59 GMT -5
The Republican bill is purely to generate political capital. Inasmuch as Democrats also do this (Obama shamelessly exploited the Sandy Hook tragedy), it's hard to complain about it. But let's not pretend it comes from concern for what people are going through. As douger points out the Democrats rung the bell and it can't be unrung. The Republicans best strategy at this point is to tell people, "Hey, you wanted this. Well, you got it. It's a little late to decide you don't have the belly for it." Except in a politer and more politically adroit way. The point is to make sure people remember in November who did this to them. What 'Republican bill'?
|
|
|
Post by Evil Yoda on Nov 11, 2013 21:30:04 GMT -5
The one douger referred to, that will allow people to keep their existing policies - except that the insurance companies are in most cases no longer selling those policies. See his post about halfway down page 1.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:33:37 GMT -5
The one douger referred to, that will allow people to keep their existing policies - except that the insurance companies are in most cases no longer selling those policies. See his post about halfway down page 1. And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public?
|
|
|
Post by Moses on Nov 11, 2013 21:35:52 GMT -5
The one douger referred to, that will allow people to keep their existing policies - except that the insurance companies are in most cases no longer selling those policies. See his post about halfway down page 1. And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? You could say the same exact things about obamacare!!!!
|
|
|
Post by douger on Nov 11, 2013 21:41:08 GMT -5
The one douger referred to, that will allow people to keep their existing policies - except that the insurance companies are in most cases no longer selling those policies. See his post about halfway down page 1. And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? You've answered your own question. It's a feel good bill at best and for the truly cynical it's political patronizing at its worst. Millions of people - the exact number is hard to get but appears to be somewhere between 15 million and 52 million - will one way or the other be caught in a no mans land of no insurance. How long? One month? Three? Six? Guess who gets to write the regulations, assuming it passes both houses and gets signed by Obama.
|
|
|
Post by drjohnnyfever on Nov 11, 2013 21:43:31 GMT -5
The one douger referred to, that will allow people to keep their existing policies - except that the insurance companies are in most cases no longer selling those policies. See his post about halfway down page 1. And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? I disagree-the insurers could turn this around quickly if legislation is passed soon but they can only comply with the law as written.
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:43:47 GMT -5
And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? You've answered your own question. It's a feel good bill at best and for the truly cynical it's political patronizing at its worst. Millions of people - the exact number is hard to get but appears to be somewhere between 15 million and 52 million - will one way or the other be caught in a no mans land of no insurance. How long? One month? Three? Six? Guess who gets to write the regulations, assuming it passes both houses and gets signed by Obama. Yet is it also not the first step needed to unwind this mess? And the sooner it's put in place, the shorter that no-mans' land exists?
|
|
|
Post by Ranger John on Nov 11, 2013 21:45:12 GMT -5
And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? I disagree-the insurers could turn this around quickly if legislation is passed soon but they can only comply with the law as written. I suspect you're right - getting back to a place where they were (and have been) shouldn't be all that difficult. But this is hypothetical. It could, in fact, be a massive challenge. Especially if there's no reason to believe going back will be permanent.
|
|
|
Post by rocketwolf on Nov 11, 2013 21:52:04 GMT -5
How can we trust Obama or Congress to do it right the second time?
And why should we after its been shown to be an abortion of the first order.
|
|
|
Post by Evil Yoda on Nov 11, 2013 21:54:59 GMT -5
And why is that bill not about trying to do right by the American people? Yes, I know it could take months for the insurance companies to undo their end of Obamacare, but isn't giving them the opportunity to make the effort a net benefit to the public? Because that's not how politicians think. Right around election time the Pubs often stand up a bill restricting abortion. Typically, these bills have a fatal flaw, like omitting the medical exemption, that guarantees they'll get no traction, and if they do, that they'll be struck down on Constitutional grounds. This is because the Pubs know actually trying to outlaw abortion is political poison - roughly 75% of the country doesn't agree with that stance. But they have to pretend they're doing something their core constituency, religious extremists, want done. Unless the bill *requires* companies to make such policies available it gives people nothing. And if it requires that, it undercuts Obamacare and the Resident won't sign it. So: nothing. It's politics.
|
|