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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 20, 2015 22:33:26 GMT -5
So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes. But if what they did saved the lives of their fellow soldiers, and it did, that does make them a hero.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 20, 2015 23:19:03 GMT -5
So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes. But if what they did saved the lives of their fellow soldiers, and it did, that does make them a hero. You mean when someone kills an enemy who might have killed a friendly is a hero... Patton said killing the other guy makes HIM a hero...
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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 5:39:35 GMT -5
Just being a Navy SEAL... or any other Special Forces... doesn't make ANYONE a hero... heck, a field goal kicker who hasn't kicked a field goal all season... becomes an instant hero when he kicks a field goal for the winning points in the game at the end of the season... remember Tom Dempsey's 63-yarder to win the game against Detroit in New Orleans?... an instant hero... Of course getting that SEAL trident stabbed on ones chest doesn't make one a hero... But, any SEAL (or any other Special Forces) who saves the lives of fellow soldiers while putting his own life in great peril in combat--whether or not he chose to be there--is a hero in my book. "Combat" on the gridiron doesn't qualify...
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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 5:51:49 GMT -5
Both held records at the time for killing enemy at a great distance as a sniper... but don't most all snipers kill from a distance... that's why they're called snipers, isn't it?... Many of these guys here certainly don't consider sniper Lon Horiuchi a hero... So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes.Let's see if you're hero enough to loudly spout that out in a pub where Harrison and Furlong are enjoying a few bitters along with a few soldiers who are still alive, courtesy of the snipers' bullets...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 7:33:29 GMT -5
So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes. But if what they did saved the lives of their fellow soldiers, and it did, that does make them a hero. Not my definition of a hero, no.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 7:40:33 GMT -5
So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes. Let's see if you're hero enough to loudly spout that out in a pub where Harrison and Furlong are enjoying a few bitters along with a few soldiers who are still alive, courtesy of the snipers' bullets... Here you demonstrate that you do not know the actual meaning of the word 'hero', perhaps if you did, we would not be having this soppy back and forth.
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Post by davinci on Jan 21, 2015 8:03:41 GMT -5
I think that you are judging Moore's character by his politics. The thing I object to is that he tells lies to get his point across, in those "faux"cumentaries he makes. He's been called out on it by left and right. That's a character problem irrelevant to his politics. Interesting, he sounds like The Sniper then. He sounds like he's lied quite a bit. Killed 30 people in New Orleans after Katrina; killed two guys trying to steal his truck in Dallas; beat up Jesse Ventura
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 8:31:33 GMT -5
But Ventura didn't have a mark on him... and won his defamation suit... now that owner in the saloon in Montana put ole Jesse in his place...
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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 10:51:55 GMT -5
Let's see if you're hero enough to loudly spout that out in a pub where Harrison and Furlong are enjoying a few bitters along with a few soldiers who are still alive, courtesy of the snipers' bullets... Here you demonstrate that you do not know the actual meaning of the word 'hero', perhaps if you did, we would not be having this soppy back and forth. One definition of hero is one who is admired for ones courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities. We don't do that nobility crap over here, so Kyle, Harrison, Furlong, and Hathcock qualify as heroes because of their courage and outstanding achievements. You, of course, may pervert those qualities to fit your own definition as you have done in the past with your definitions.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 11:45:06 GMT -5
So they hold records for doing what they were paid for well, that makes them good at their jobs, it does not make them heroes. Let's see if you're hero enough to loudly spout that out in a pub where Harrison and Furlong are enjoying a few bitters along with a few soldiers who are still alive, courtesy of the snipers' bullets... Doing this would not require heroism, but courage. Or foolhardiness, take your pick.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 11:49:34 GMT -5
The thing I object to is that he tells lies to get his point across, in those "faux"cumentaries he makes. He's been called out on it by left and right. That's a character problem irrelevant to his politics. Interesting, he sounds like The Sniper then. He sounds like he's lied quite a bit. Killed 30 people in New Orleans after Katrina; killed two guys trying to steal his truck in Dallas; beat up Jesse Ventura We'll never know because Kyle is dead, but those incidents sound more like a person with mental health problems, based on the little I know about them. As opposed to Moore, who is free of mental illness as far as we know. And free of conscience, as well. Worse, if Moore ever had anything legitimate to say, he has given friends reason to be skeptical and enemies ammunition and reason to probe his claims. His character flaws ruin his message.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 11:52:07 GMT -5
But if what they did saved the lives of their fellow soldiers, and it did, that does make them a hero. Not my definition of a hero, no. I'd ask what your definition of a hero is, but I'm afraid to know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 12:05:42 GMT -5
Let's see if you're hero enough to loudly spout that out in a pub where Harrison and Furlong are enjoying a few bitters along with a few soldiers who are still alive, courtesy of the snipers' bullets... Doing this would not require heroism, but courage. Or foolhardiness, take your pick. Thank you for stating what aponderer seems to be having trouble with. He believes that I have a different definition of the word 'hero' when it is he that is applying his own definition, he even states "over here..." There is only one definition of the word 'hero', it can be found in any quality dictionary, and that is the definition that I am using.
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 21, 2015 12:23:12 GMT -5
Not my definition of a hero, no. I'd ask what your definition of a hero is, but I'm afraid to know. I'd like to know.
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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 13:19:58 GMT -5
Doing this would not require heroism, but courage. Or foolhardiness, take your pick. Thank you for stating what aponderer seems to be having trouble with. He believes that I have a different definition of the word 'hero' when it is he that is applying his own definition, he even states "over here..." There is only one definition of the word 'hero', it can be found in any quality dictionary, and that is the definition that I am using. HERE are several definitions of the word hero. Do any of these fit your definition?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 13:42:50 GMT -5
I'd ask what your definition of a hero is, but I'm afraid to know. I'd like to know. Let me answer both your questions and aponderers one with one of my own, aponderer tangential style, question. Do you consider all Taliban snipers to be 'heroes'?
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Post by stevez51 on Jan 21, 2015 13:57:26 GMT -5
I was waiting for the muslin angle to come. Maybe to the Taliban they are heroes. In the War of 1812 the 2 boys who shot the British General during the Battle of North Point were hailed as heroes.
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Post by davinci on Jan 21, 2015 13:57:37 GMT -5
Interesting, he sounds like The Sniper then. He sounds like he's lied quite a bit. Killed 30 people in New Orleans after Katrina; killed two guys trying to steal his truck in Dallas; beat up Jesse Ventura We'll never know because Kyle is dead, but those incidents sound more like a person with mental health problems, based on the little I know about them. As opposed to Moore, who is free of mental illness as far as we know. And free of conscience, as well. Worse, if Moore ever had anything legitimate to say, he has given friends reason to be skeptical and enemies ammunition and reason to probe his claims. His character flaws ruin his message. Likewise, all Kyles lies ruin his supposed heroism.
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 21, 2015 15:13:21 GMT -5
Let me answer both your questions and aponderers one with one of my own, aponderer tangential style, question. Do you consider all Taliban snipers to be 'heroes'? That didn't actually answer my question.
But to answer yours.... no, I don't think a Taliban sniper is a hero, they are the enemy to me. Their snipers would be killing their threat which means they are killing Americans and I'm not okay with that. I would bet that they think they are heroes.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 15:18:55 GMT -5
Let me answer both your questions and aponderers one with one of my own, aponderer tangential style, question. Do you consider all Taliban snipers to be 'heroes'? No. But I don't doubt that there are among the Taliban those who do. I have never claimed that when I call someone a hero everyone else must do so as well.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 15:20:30 GMT -5
Likewise, all Kyles lies ruin his supposed heroism. Not to me. Because what he did in theater and what he did afterwards are disconnected events. Moore, on the other hand, tells lies as part of trying to get his message heard. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.
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Post by davinci on Jan 21, 2015 15:43:20 GMT -5
Likewise, all Kyles lies ruin his supposed heroism. Not to me. Because what he did in theater and what he did afterwards are disconnected events. Moore, on the other hand, tells lies as part of trying to get his message heard. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. I'm sorry that to you to you Kyles lies don't make a difference. I tend to expect people that are called hero's to be held to a different standard. I wouldn't throw that word around about just anybody. I've read that the film (ok Clint) really cast the two snipers in different lights. What makes one so much better than another?
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 15:49:01 GMT -5
Thank you for stating what aponderer seems to be having trouble with. He believes that I have a different definition of the word 'hero' when it is he that is applying his own definition, he even states "over here..." There is only one definition of the word 'hero', it can be found in any quality dictionary, and that is the definition that I am using. HERE are several definitions of the word hero. Do any of these fit your definition? Bill Cosby is a "hero" to many... a "SOB" to many others... take your pick... we are at the point of losing the real meaning of a "real" hero... one who goes well "above and beyond" what is expected... Kyle was indeed a "hero" to many... an "brown eye" to many others... you may want to read up a little more on the man... I already have... --------------------------------------------- Here's you a REAL hero... (and yes, folks... this man was a personal friend of mine)... The President of the United States in the name of The Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to SLATON, JAMES D. Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Army, 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division. Place and Date Near Oliveto, Italy, 23 September 1943. Entered Service at: Gulfport, Miss. Born: 2 April 1912, Laurel, Miss G.O. No.: 44, 30 May 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy in the vicinity of Oliveto, Italy, on 23 September 1943. Cpl. Slaton was lead scout of an infantry squad which had been committed to a flank to knock out enemy resistance which had succeeded in pinning 2 attacking platoons to the ground. Working ahead of his squad, Cpl. Slaton crept upon an enemy machinegun nest and, assaulting it with his bayonet, succeeded in killing the gunner. When his bayonet stuck, he detached it from the rifle and killed another gunner with rifle fire. At that time he was fired upon by a machinegun to his immediate left. Cpl. Slaton then moved over open ground under constant fire to within throwing distance, and on his second try scored a direct hit on the second enemy machinegun nest, killing 2 enemy gunners. At that time a third machinegun fired on him 100 yards to his front, and Cpl. Slaton killed both of these enemy gunners with rifle fire. As a result of Cpl. Slaton's heroic action in immobilizing 3 enemy machinegun nests with bayonet, grenade, and rifle fire, the 2 rifle platoons which were receiving heavy casualties from enemy fire were enabled to withdraw to covered positions and again take the initiative. Cpl. Slaton withdrew under mortar fire on order of his platoon leader at dusk that evening. The heroic actions of Cpl. Slaton were far above and beyond the call of duty and are worthy of emulation.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 15:55:33 GMT -5
Likewise, all Kyles lies ruin his supposed heroism. Not to me. Because what he did in theater and what he did afterwards are disconnected events. Moore, on the other hand, tells lies as part of trying to get his message heard. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. Can you list just ONE specific lie Moore has told in an attempt to get his message heard... Thank you in advance...
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 16:17:39 GMT -5
There is a difference between doing things that are "honorable"... and doing things that are "heroic"...
For instance... Pat Tillman left the Arizona Cardinals NFL football team to go fight for his Country's cause... which is "honorable" that he would do so... he died in what was thought to be the result of hostile action... he immediately became a "hero" to many... because he died... then it was revealed that Tillman died as a result of friendly fire... which diminished his "hero" status... at least to some... some think that if a military individual dies, they're automatically a "hero"... others think that anyone who wear a military uniform are "heroes"... while I think both are "honorable"... neither are necessarily "heroic"...
I can assure you that the military guys from Camp Shelby (in Hattiesburg, MS) who were standing in front of Sam's Club, in uniform... who, as we walked by with our grandchildren, about every other word we heard was muther *****er... or some other vulgar or profane word... were NOT my kind of "heroes"... (just because they were in uniform)...
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