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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 16:37:09 GMT -5
HERE are several definitions of the word hero. Do any of these fit your definition? Bill Cosby is a "hero" to many... a "SOB" to many others... take your pick... we are at the point of losing the real meaning of a "real" hero... one who goes well "above and beyond" what is expected... Kyle was indeed a "hero" to many... an "brown eye" to many others... you may want to read up a little more on the man... I already have... --------------------------------------------- Here's you a REAL hero... (and yes, folks... this man was a personal friend of mine)... The President of the United States in the name of The Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to SLATON, JAMES D. Rank and Organization: Corporal, U.S. Army, 157th Infantry, 45th Infantry Division. Place and Date Near Oliveto, Italy, 23 September 1943. Entered Service at: Gulfport, Miss. Born: 2 April 1912, Laurel, Miss G.O. No.: 44, 30 May 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy in the vicinity of Oliveto, Italy, on 23 September 1943. Cpl. Slaton was lead scout of an infantry squad which had been committed to a flank to knock out enemy resistance which had succeeded in pinning 2 attacking platoons to the ground. Working ahead of his squad, Cpl. Slaton crept upon an enemy machinegun nest and, assaulting it with his bayonet, succeeded in killing the gunner. When his bayonet stuck, he detached it from the rifle and killed another gunner with rifle fire. At that time he was fired upon by a machinegun to his immediate left. Cpl. Slaton then moved over open ground under constant fire to within throwing distance, and on his second try scored a direct hit on the second enemy machinegun nest, killing 2 enemy gunners. At that time a third machinegun fired on him 100 yards to his front, and Cpl. Slaton killed both of these enemy gunners with rifle fire. As a result of Cpl. Slaton's heroic action in immobilizing 3 enemy machinegun nests with bayonet, grenade, and rifle fire, the 2 rifle platoons which were receiving heavy casualties from enemy fire were enabled to withdraw to covered positions and again take the initiative. Cpl. Slaton withdrew under mortar fire on order of his platoon leader at dusk that evening. The heroic actions of Cpl. Slaton were far above and beyond the call of duty and are worthy of emulation.A.D., I've already agreed with your assessment of James Slaton. And in addition to Kyle's two books, I've read a lot more about him. I regard him as a hero, as I've posted before. Have you researched any of the stories about Carlos Hathcock, Marine Scout Sniper? A Maj. Edward Land started the Marine Scout Sniper Program and one of his student was Hathcock. Later, in Vietnam, Land was not only Hathcock's commanding officer, but Hathcock's spotter. Those two have quite a series of exploits. One involved a VC female sniper who they called "Apache." Maj. Land (Ret.) now serves as the Secretary of the NRA.
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Post by aponderer on Jan 21, 2015 16:39:53 GMT -5
Not to me. Because what he did in theater and what he did afterwards are disconnected events. Moore, on the other hand, tells lies as part of trying to get his message heard. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. I'm sorry that to you to you Kyles lies don't make a difference. I tend to expect people that are called hero's to be held to a different standard. I wouldn't throw that word around about just anybody. I've read that the film (ok Clint) really cast the two snipers in different lights. What makes one so much better than another? I've not seen the film, but what two snipers are you talking about? I presume one of them is Kyle...
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 16:40:31 GMT -5
We all have our personal "heroes"... (which is fine... we need 'em)... and thank you, Aponderer... no, I haven't... I'm just not into that...
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 18:06:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry that to you to you Kyles lies don't make a difference. I tend to expect people that are called hero's to be held to a different standard. I wouldn't throw that word around about just anybody. They make the difference that I wouldn't trust him. They don't affect what he did in theater. That's what me calling him a hero is based on.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jan 21, 2015 18:08:17 GMT -5
Not to me. Because what he did in theater and what he did afterwards are disconnected events. Moore, on the other hand, tells lies as part of trying to get his message heard. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. Can you list just ONE specific lie Moore has told in an attempt to get his message heard... Thank you in advance... I'll let Slate - darling of the American left - do it. That's just one film. He also lied in Columbine and in Sicko.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 18:17:01 GMT -5
Let me answer both your questions and aponderers one with one of my own, aponderer tangential style, question. Do you consider all Taliban snipers to be 'heroes'? No. But I don't doubt that there are among the Taliban those who do. I have never claimed that when I call someone a hero everyone else must do so as well.Then please afford me the same courtesy to decide who I consider to be a hero or not, without the third degree examination.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 21, 2015 21:54:49 GMT -5
That's Hitchen's take on it... but what specific lie would you like to cite from the piece?... keep in mind that I didn't see "Fahrenheit 911"... it was just a movie as I understand it... If the other two you mentioned (Columbine and Sicko) are movies, I didn't see either of them either...
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Post by stevez51 on Jan 22, 2015 7:32:04 GMT -5
No. But I don't doubt that there are among the Taliban those who do. I have never claimed that when I call someone a hero everyone else must do so as well.Then please afford me the same courtesy to decide who I consider to be a hero or not, without the third degree examination. OK, guess its safe to say you support Taliban snipers .....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 7:46:37 GMT -5
Then please afford me the same courtesy to decide who I consider to be a hero or not, without the third degree examination. OK, guess its safe to say you support Taliban snipers ..... No, that could only be the view of nincompoops who have trouble with their reading comprehension. Nowhere in any of my posts have I given any indication that I support Taliban snipers. If you care to take the time to think about my posts instead of just kneejerk mouthing off about them, you might actually deduce that I don't particularly support any snipers. You can apologise for your ignorant mistake if you wish to.
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 22, 2015 10:07:54 GMT -5
OK, guess its safe to say you support Taliban snipers ..... No, that could only be the view of nincompoops who have trouble with their reading comprehension. Nowhere in any of my posts have I given any indication that I support Taliban snipers. If you care to take the time to think about my posts instead of just kneejerk mouthing off about them, you might actually deduce that I don't particularly support any snipers. You can apologise for your ignorant mistake if you wish to. I must admit BE, I had to wonder about that very point myself since you were the one that brought up the point about the Taliban snipers. You didn't state it but you used them as an example so I wondered if you thought they were heroes or if you were assuming I thought ALL snipers were heroes. Further, I don't think anyone is giving you the third degree. You made some statements, some posters asked you some questions, you never really gave an answer. You answered questions with a question and then gave a blanket answer that you agree with the definition of a hero in a quality dictionary. I wasn't sure what you mean by quality dictionary. Further when you were presented with three options from three different dictionaries you didn't clarify. I don't want to misunderstand you, I just want to make sure I understand your point. Sometimes these conversations can drag on and on and on and on when people are misunderstood. Know what I mean??
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Post by aponderer on Jan 22, 2015 10:34:16 GMT -5
No, that could only be the view of nincompoops who have trouble with their reading comprehension. Nowhere in any of my posts have I given any indication that I support Taliban snipers. If you care to take the time to think about my posts instead of just kneejerk mouthing off about them, you might actually deduce that I don't particularly support any snipers. You can apologise for your ignorant mistake if you wish to. I must admit BE, I had to wonder about that very point myself since you were the one that brought up the point about the Taliban snipers. You didn't state it but you used them as an example so I wondered if you thought they were heroes or if you were assuming I thought ALL snipers were heroes. Further, I don't think anyone is giving you the third degree. You made some statements, some posters asked you some questions, you never really gave an answer. You answered questions with a question and then gave a blanket answer that you agree with the definition of a hero in a quality dictionary. I wasn't sure what you mean by quality dictionary. Further when you were presented with three options from three different dictionaries you didn't clarify. I don't want to misunderstand you, I just want to make sure I understand your point. Sometimes these conversations can drag on and on and on and on when people are misunderstood. Know what I mean?? baldeagle doesn't like to admit it, Cowboz, but he doesn't like to be cornered... [wait for it... wait for it...]
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 22, 2015 11:23:47 GMT -5
I must admit BE, I had to wonder about that very point myself since you were the one that brought up the point about the Taliban snipers. You didn't state it but you used them as an example so I wondered if you thought they were heroes or if you were assuming I thought ALL snipers were heroes. Further, I don't think anyone is giving you the third degree. You made some statements, some posters asked you some questions, you never really gave an answer. You answered questions with a question and then gave a blanket answer that you agree with the definition of a hero in a quality dictionary. I wasn't sure what you mean by quality dictionary. Further when you were presented with three options from three different dictionaries you didn't clarify. I don't want to misunderstand you, I just want to make sure I understand your point. Sometimes these conversations can drag on and on and on and on when people are misunderstood. Know what I mean?? baldeagle doesn't like to admit it, Cowboz, but he doesn't like to be cornered... [wait for it... wait for it...]
Let's be honest here, guys and gals... if we are going to consider someone who kills an enemy from a distance as a sniper, a "hero"... and NOT necessarily going "above and beyond the call to duty"... we must also say that others may also consider their snipers to be "heroes" for the same reason... Me thinks you guys are getting "honorable" and "heroic" confused...
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 22, 2015 11:56:02 GMT -5
I must admit BE, I had to wonder about that very point myself since you were the one that brought up the point about the Taliban snipers. You didn't state it but you used them as an example so I wondered if you thought they were heroes or if you were assuming I thought ALL snipers were heroes. Further, I don't think anyone is giving you the third degree. You made some statements, some posters asked you some questions, you never really gave an answer. You answered questions with a question and then gave a blanket answer that you agree with the definition of a hero in a quality dictionary. I wasn't sure what you mean by quality dictionary. Further when you were presented with three options from three different dictionaries you didn't clarify. I don't want to misunderstand you, I just want to make sure I understand your point. Sometimes these conversations can drag on and on and on and on when people are misunderstood. Know what I mean?? baldeagle doesn't like to admit it, Cowboz, but he doesn't like to be cornered... [wait for it... wait for it...]
Oh man, I wasn't trying to corner him. I was just trying to get some clarification.
It's all good. I'm comfortable believing that Chris Kyle is a hero, he really is in my eyes.
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 22, 2015 11:58:14 GMT -5
baldeagle doesn't like to admit it, Cowboz, but he doesn't like to be cornered... [wait for it... wait for it...]
Let's be honest here, guys and gals... if we are going to consider someone who kills an enemy from a distance as a sniper, a "hero"... and NOT necessarily going "above and beyond the call to duty"... we must also say that others may also consider their snipers to be "heroes" for the same reason... Me thinks you guys are getting "honorable" and "heroic" confused... And you are entitled to think whatever you want and I am entitled to respectfully disagree with you!!
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Post by stevez51 on Jan 22, 2015 14:57:50 GMT -5
I must admit BE, I had to wonder about that very point myself since you were the one that brought up the point about the Taliban snipers. You didn't state it but you used them as an example so I wondered if you thought they were heroes or if you were assuming I thought ALL snipers were heroes. Further, I don't think anyone is giving you the third degree. You made some statements, some posters asked you some questions, you never really gave an answer. You answered questions with a question and then gave a blanket answer that you agree with the definition of a hero in a quality dictionary. I wasn't sure what you mean by quality dictionary. Further when you were presented with three options from three different dictionaries you didn't clarify. I don't want to misunderstand you, I just want to make sure I understand your point. Sometimes these conversations can drag on and on and on and on when people are misunderstood. Know what I mean?? baldeagle doesn't like to admit it, Cowboz, but he doesn't like to be cornered... [wait for it... wait for it...]
He needs to change his name to Old Fussin Feathers .......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 18:50:16 GMT -5
"Cornered" LMAO, AP doesn't like to admit it but he invariably talks out of his arse, Steve needs to change his name to Old Big Nose (always sticking it into other people's business) sniping but not offering any true valued imput.
Cowboyz seems to only view the perspective through her patriotic hubristic tinted specs, I don't know how else she could question my position to the point of suggesting that I would support a Taliban sniper but not an American one. Perhaps she can point to the post that could possibly have drawn her to make that conclusion.
So for the mini gang, or is it a fairey ring? I will make it as simple as possible in two steps.
1. I don't consider anyone who kills to order from a great distance while under cover a 'hero', be he black, white, American, British or Taliban or any other flavour that you care to come up with.
2. We clearly have different views on what makes a 'hero', I obviously have higher standards, just doing a job well doesn't cut it for me, Just serving in the military doesn't cut it for me. For me, a hero is one who in immediate danger and at great risk to themselves, will still try to save another.
A current example of a hero is a niece of mine who has just returned from Sierra Leone after a four week 'tour of ops' nursing Ebola victims, she is already talking of returning.
Just slapping a 'hero' tag on to anyone that does their job well, cheapens the value of the word IMHO.
What would be the next level of heroism, think about it, it can't be 'super hero', they just wear brightly coloured knickers over their pants and jump huge buildings in a single bound, and they can't die anyway as there's a shortage of Kryptonite.
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Post by aponderer on Jan 22, 2015 20:16:17 GMT -5
So, baldeagle, do you agree with any of those definitions I presented to you? And if so, which one(s)?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:30:16 GMT -5
Perhaps we should allow each other the right to decide who they consider a hero and not wordy about the minutiae. We are all adults.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:44:28 GMT -5
Perhaps we should allow each other the right to decide who they consider a hero and not wordy about the minutiae. We are all adults. Suits me.
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Post by highmc2 on Jan 22, 2015 20:58:42 GMT -5
Heroics are always situational. Kyle was a warrior hero. It would be impossible to live that status in all aspects of his life. Like everyone else he had flaws.
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Post by Cowboyz on Jan 23, 2015 10:07:18 GMT -5
"Cornered" LMAO, AP doesn't like to admit it but he invariably talks out of his arse, Steve needs to change his name to Old Big Nose (always sticking it into other people's business) sniping but not offering any true valued imput. Cowboyz seems to only view the perspective through her patriotic hubristic tinted specs, I don't know how else she could question my position to the point of suggesting that I would support a Taliban sniper but not an American one. Perhaps she can point to the post that could possibly have drawn her to make that conclusion. So for the mini gang, or is it a fairey ring? I will make it as simple as possible in two steps. 1. I don't consider anyone who kills to order from a great distance while under cover a 'hero', be he black, white, American, British or Taliban or any other flavour that you care to come up with. 2. We clearly have different views on what makes a 'hero', I obviously have higher standards, just doing a job well doesn't cut it for me, Just serving in the military doesn't cut it for me. For me, a hero is one who in immediate danger and at great risk to themselves, will still try to save another. A current example of a hero is a niece of mine who has just returned from Sierra Leone after a four week 'tour of ops' nursing Ebola victims, she is already talking of returning. Just slapping a 'hero' tag on to anyone that does their job well, cheapens the value of the word IMHO. What would be the next level of heroism, think about it, it can't be 'super hero', they just wear brightly coloured knickers over their pants and jump huge buildings in a single bound, and they can't die anyway as there's a shortage of Kryptonite. BE - I drew no conclusions nor did I state that I did. Since you did not provide your definition of a hero before you posted the question about the Taliban I simply wondered.... wow, I wonder if he considers a sniper for the Taliban a hero. That would seem like a fair question since you gave the example. Clearly you have an idea that I am patriotic, as you stated I was looking thru my patriotic hubristic tinted specs, so why then would you even ask if I though a sniper for the Taliban was a hero in my eyes?
I never challenged your definition of a hero BE, I only asked what yours was. I didn't even know your definition until this post. All I said was "I'd like to know". We were having a discussion about heroes, you were challenging other posters definition of what a hero is. What's wrong with asking you your definition so we can have a level conversation?
I don't appreciate your sarcasm about the next level of heroism. But to answer your question, I don't think there is a next level of heroism, once a hero always a hero and if you continue to do heroic acts it's just that. Nor do I appreciate your snarky little insults like "mini gang", "fairey ring". I'm part of neither.
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Post by vosa on Jan 23, 2015 13:43:15 GMT -5
Whether or not a sniper is a hero or not depends on what he's/she's sniping for. A person who snipes in defense of shooting children for watching a soccer game or beheading women who fall in love with someone outside their faith will never be a hero to me. Whereas someone who snipes to put an end to those practices could, under extraordinary circumstances, be considered a hero. An example of extraordinary circumstances can be found in the story of Medal of Honor winner Roy P. Benavidez. If anyone deserves to name "hero" it is Sgt. Benavidez.
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 23, 2015 14:29:49 GMT -5
Whether or not a sniper is a hero or not depends on what he's/she's sniping for. A person who snipes in defense of shooting children for watching a soccer game or beheading women who fall in love with someone outside their faith will never be a hero to me. Whereas someone who snipes to put an end to those practices could, under extraordinary circumstances, be considered a hero. An example of extraordinary circumstances can be found in the story of Medal of Honor winner Roy P. Benavidez. If anyone deserves to name "hero" it is Sgt. Benavidez. I completely agree... as in the story of Medal of Honor winner Cpl James D Slaton... A corporal, mind you...
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 23, 2015 17:43:36 GMT -5
While I haven't seen the movie... nor do I intend to... here is what we run the rish of happening when movies like this are made... and why things like the attack in Benghazi took place... whether that attack was a planned attack... or a spontaneous one... "As American Sniper continues to ignite political debate, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee is worried about 'serious threats' being made to Arabs and Muslims."
www.usatoday.com/story/life/2015/01/23/adc-warns-american-sniper-death-threats-arabs-muslims/22210521/
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Post by aboutwell on Jan 23, 2015 19:13:20 GMT -5
Good advice. The same thing is true for Fox contributors you don't want to hear what they say... I hear ya... I couldn't tell you a thing he said this morning on Fox... I was paying more attention to Tantaros... With regard to Obama not meeting with Netanyhu... but meeting with a woman who takes a bath in her cereal... Andrea Tantaros asked if she were in a bathtub with her cereal would Obama talk with her... now I can't speak for Obama... but even at my age, I can damn sure speak for me... YES... and "wash her back"...
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