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Post by dsummoner on Nov 25, 2013 0:37:00 GMT -5
Source: Interesting. In many ways it is a surprise that this did not happen sooner, given that secularism, long ago, gelded Christianity to a mere religion of the cafeteria variety (i.e. rather than scriptural commandment from a 'higher' authority, it has become a 'I do what I want and how I want it' lifestyle choice that plays a second fiddle to one's secular lifestyle choices). It would be interesting to know if decline in 'typical Sunday congregations' has been varied or continuous, in regards to rate, as a function of time and the factors that have been correlative.
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Post by kemmer on Nov 25, 2013 0:59:17 GMT -5
Interesting... but then...
Once people become free individuals, with free will and the "protestant" vision of free people finding God without the paternalistic intervention of "their betters" who know Latin, and no longer feel a need for archbishops and such to admonish and threaten them in order to reach salvation...
Does not the "religion of women and slaves" return to its original roots?
Just wondering-- although I can see how an aristocratic lord who is, also, a former Archbishop of Canterbury might be worried about his high status in British society being threatened.
(See also: the inroads evangelical protestants are making in Latin America, where the Pope and the Roman Catholic hierarchy has ruled for so long.)
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Post by dsummoner on Nov 25, 2013 1:31:42 GMT -5
To think that it was merely only in 1534 when King Henry VIII separated from Papal authority, the English church. How would history have played out had he simply not sought an annulment from Catherine of Aragon? How would the extant English Reformation have played out? How interesting it is to see history repeating itself in a New Reformation, one in which the religion is reformed by replacement. Not to be confused with the movement of Christian Identity (proper noun), but the loss of identity as a Christian coupled with its replacement might be a hallmark event of the times and one driven by the concept of Christianity having lost *all* effective meaning secondary to cafeteriaization.
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Post by rentedmule on Nov 25, 2013 6:05:41 GMT -5
Interesting topic! The economist Gregory Clark seems to feel that the Anglo culture was "protestant" even before they knew it! Economic historians find that an amazing amount of information is available in even the most mundane affairs of English life as early as 1300 because of the record keeping and widespread use of weights and measures and language and contracts. Some contemporary economies are more difficult for an economist to assess than was England seven centuries ago. Destroying the notion that knowlege and education be reserved for the priviledged was the basis for the formation of the middle class..... As usual, society does all the work and some damn disgruntled king is attributed with the credit!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 8:01:30 GMT -5
Not surprising. In Western world, secularism only grows. Though I wonder if they are counting Church of England only, or are they considering all church activity? Science has done much to answer many questions of existence. Nonprofits to address community issues for good works, as well as state welfare, has replaced much of the charitable acts of churches. And the social pressure to be seen in church on Sundays, or synagogue on Saturdays, what have you, is gone for all but the most devoted people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 8:41:10 GMT -5
Perhaps the UK is just becoming more enlightened.
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Post by freddfish on Nov 25, 2013 9:13:50 GMT -5
Not surprising. In Western world, secularism only grows. Though I wonder if they are counting Church of England only, or are they considering all church activity? Science has done much to answer many questions of existence. Nonprofits to address community issues for good works, as well as state welfare, has replaced much of the charitable acts of churches. And the social pressure to be seen in church on Sundays, or synagogue on Saturdays, what have you, is gone for all but the most devoted people. Couple this with some of the recent scandals in the Catholic church (yeah, I know...we were talking about C of E, and England-not-Ireland, but still), and you have an entire generation that have lost faith and confidence. It makes for some good history to speculate back upon past centuries, but in Ireland at least, you only need go back about 20-25 years. The churches in Ireland have become empty shells, largely due to self-inflicted scandals like the Magdalene laundries and the priest sex-abuse scandals. AND the resulting cover-ups, which often prove more damaging in the long term than the actual act.
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:20:41 GMT -5
Source: Interesting. In many ways it is a surprise that this did not happen sooner, given that secularism, long ago, gelded Christianity to a mere religion of the cafeteria variety (i.e. rather than scriptural commandment from a 'higher' authority, it has become a 'I do what I want and how I want it' lifestyle choice that plays a second fiddle to one's secular lifestyle choices). It would be interesting to know if decline in 'typical Sunday congregations' has been varied or continuous, in regards to rate, as a function of time and the factors that have been correlative. A true religion is not organized .
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Post by com6063 on Nov 25, 2013 11:23:13 GMT -5
Source: Interesting. In many ways it is a surprise that this did not happen sooner, given that secularism, long ago, gelded Christianity to a mere religion of the cafeteria variety (i.e. rather than scriptural commandment from a 'higher' authority, it has become a 'I do what I want and how I want it' lifestyle choice that plays a second fiddle to one's secular lifestyle choices). It would be interesting to know if decline in 'typical Sunday congregations' has been varied or continuous, in regards to rate, as a function of time and the factors that have been correlative. A true religion is not organized . What do you mean? You don't think God would want his religion organized?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 11:23:59 GMT -5
Not surprising. In Western world, secularism only grows. Though I wonder if they are counting Church of England only, or are they considering all church activity? Science has done much to answer many questions of existence. Nonprofits to address community issues for good works, as well as state welfare, has replaced much of the charitable acts of churches. And the social pressure to be seen in church on Sundays, or synagogue on Saturdays, what have you, is gone for all but the most devoted people. Couple this with some of the recent scandals in the Catholic church (yeah, I know...we were talking about C of E, and England-not-Ireland, but still), and you have an entire generation that have lost faith and confidence. It makes for some good history to speculate back upon past centuries, but in Ireland at least, you only need go back about 20-25 years. The churches in Ireland have become empty shells, largely due to self-inflicted scandals like the Magdalene laundries and the priest sex-abuse scandals. AND the resulting cover-ups, which often prove more damaging in the long term than the actual act. Nothing causes folks to lose faith on an institution like finding out it allowed priests to harm children .
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:24:16 GMT -5
A true religion is not organized . What do you mean? You don't think God would want his religion organized? No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 11:28:17 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't think God would want his religion organized? No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too. As in they all 'take his name in vain', do you mean?
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:32:20 GMT -5
No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too. As in they all 'take his name in vain', do you mean? The exclusion/ inclusion factor. Many reasons actually. It's actually uncomfortable to talk about spirituality on these forums. So I avoid it generally.
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Post by com6063 on Nov 25, 2013 11:39:15 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't think God would want his religion organized? No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too. I don't understand what "Look what happens" means. Organization leads to crimes? How do we feed the poor and receive the Sacraments if there is no organization? Wander around and hope for the best?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 11:44:14 GMT -5
No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too. I don't understand what "Look what happens" means. Organization leads to crimes? How do we feed the poor and receive the Sacraments if there is no organization? Wander around and hope for the best? Well, one could give donations to one of the many charitable institutions that aren't church or religion based, I suppose.
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:45:41 GMT -5
No. Look what happens. And I'm talking all religions too. I don't understand what "Look what happens" means. Organization leads to crimes? How do we feed the poor and receive the Sacraments if there is no organization? Wander around and hope for the best? I suppose you have a point . I keep forgetting there is good being done. The media likes bad news and negativity.
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:46:09 GMT -5
I don't understand what "Look what happens" means. Organization leads to crimes? How do we feed the poor and receive the Sacraments if there is no organization? Wander around and hope for the best? Well, one could give donations to one of the many charitable institutions that aren't church or religion based, I suppose. Yes
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Post by redleg on Nov 25, 2013 11:50:34 GMT -5
I think it's much the same as is happening here with the rise of the serf "culture". It's much easier to simply do whatever you want, with no rules and no restrictions than to adhere to a set of rules that requires at least a certain level of self sacrifice. When we have people that vote in politicians simply because they are promised that "someone else" will pay for their needs and wants, why would young people, steeped more and more in degradation, "self esteem" rather than self respect, and the indoctrination in Leftist ideology bother to follow a path that rejects all of that?
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:53:01 GMT -5
I think it's much the same as is happening here with the rise of the serf "culture". It's much easier to simply do whatever you want, with no rules and no restrictions than to adhere to a set of rules that requires at least a certain level of self sacrifice. When we have people that vote in politicians simply because they are promised that "someone else" will pay for their needs and wants, why would young people, steeped more and more in degradation, "self esteem" rather than self respect, and the indoctrination in Leftist ideology bother to follow a path that rejects all of that? Blah blah blah
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:55:39 GMT -5
Ah, your most intelligent post to date. I am so relieved YOU think so. Whew!
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Post by com6063 on Nov 25, 2013 11:56:58 GMT -5
I don't understand what "Look what happens" means. Organization leads to crimes? How do we feed the poor and receive the Sacraments if there is no organization? Wander around and hope for the best? Well, one could give donations to one of the many charitable institutions that aren't church or religion based, I suppose. What about the Sacraments? No organization could be bad news for souls in need of prayers and salvation.
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 11:58:40 GMT -5
Well, one could give donations to one of the many charitable institutions that aren't church or religion based, I suppose. What about the Sacraments? No organization could be bad news for souls in need of prayers and salvation. The Taliban is a religious organization isn't it?
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Post by com6063 on Nov 25, 2013 12:10:37 GMT -5
What about the Sacraments? No organization could be bad news for souls in need of prayers and salvation. The Taliban is a religious organization isn't it? I don't know, is it? What does that have to do with my query? I'm referring to Christianity, not some radical offshoot of Islam. Also, if they are organized where are their headquarters? Do they have a web site?
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Post by redleg on Nov 25, 2013 12:11:24 GMT -5
What about the Sacraments? No organization could be bad news for souls in need of prayers and salvation. The Taliban is a religious organization isn't it? No, it's a political organization, made up of Muslims.
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Post by Moses on Nov 25, 2013 12:19:21 GMT -5
The Taliban is a religious organization isn't it? I don't know, is it? What does that have to do with my query? I'm referring to Christianity, not some radical offshoot of Islam. Also, if they are organized where are their headquarters? Do they have a web site? Oh sorry, I thought we were just talking about all organized religions.
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