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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 23, 2014 10:08:19 GMT -5
aponderer writes:
I agree with much of what you write and would argue that Israel is being held to a higher standard than is Hamas. Whether that double standard is fair or not is irrelevant; it is reality and Israel’s actions have to consider that reality. They are in danger of winning the battle and losing the war.
Germany and Japan were different wars. Part of the reason we “bombed the crap” out of those two nations was that technology precluded almost any other of course of action. The Norden bombsight was better than anything else available in WW2, but still had an error of (as I remember it) about 100’ – in test conditions. Such an approach would be indefensible today.
The only way to neuter Hamas is to starve it of weapons and concurrently to offer the people of Gaza a better solution to their inherent poverty. This is why I believe it is so important for Egypt to step up.
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Post by aponderer on Jul 23, 2014 10:23:40 GMT -5
aponderer writes: I agree with much of what you write and would argue that Israel is being held to a higher standard than is Hamas. Whether that double standard is fair or not is irrelevant; it is reality and Israel’s actions have to consider that reality. They are in danger of winning the battle and losing the war. Germany and Japan were different wars. Part of the reason we “bombed the crap” out of those two nations was that technology precluded almost any other of course of action. The Norden bombsight was better than anything else available in WW2, but still had an error of (as I remember it) about 100’ – in test conditions. Such an approach would be indefensible today. The only way to neuter Hamas is to starve it of weapons and concurrently to offer the people of Gaza a better solution to their inherent poverty. This is why I believe it is so important for Egypt to step up. The WW2 bombing in Germany was IMHO directed mainly at affecting the Nazi war machine. In Japan, it was to mitigate the need to invade with troops (although baldeagle has claimed that was just an excuse to use the atom bomb). I'm not sure Egypt is a great supporter of Hamas, so perhaps Egypt can do more to step up. It appears to me that Hamas is keeping its thumb on the residents of Gaza to foment hate among them directed against the Israelis. I believe a lot of the residents of Gaza would leave the area if they had any place to go. Hamas wants to keep them there, and the other countries don't want them. IMHO, get rid of Hamas and the conflict will reduce dramatically.
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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 23, 2014 12:23:33 GMT -5
aponderer:
You’re correct in that the bombings were directed mainly at the war machine in both nations. The difference is that the state of the art in 1945 was to place a bomb within 100’ of the target. With that kind of margin of error, multiple bombs were dropped under the general impression that 1 or 2 would get where they need to be; such a bombing plan today would be a war crime. Inevitably, as one drops more bombs, the greater is the likelihood that civilians will be killed.
Hamas can keep its thumb on the people of Gaza because they have the military capability to do so. Remove that capability and Hamas is exposed as exactly what it is, a gang of cutthroat killers. Egypt is the only nation with the military capability, economic resources and geographic presence to cut off the land pipeline to Gaza and to assist Israel in cutting the sea pipeline.
We agree that Hamas has to go. What Israel should be doing right now is finding funds, both internally and externally, to help rebuild Gaza City and to create opportunities for greater self-sustainment for the people of Gaza. They need to offer a viable option to Hamas.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:27:54 GMT -5
aponderer, I am as strong a supporter of Israel as anyone on the forum and agree that Hamas has to go if there is to be any chance for peace in Gaza. I have two points to make however. While the editorial is accurate in its portrayal of Hamas as using human shields, Israel is not without innocent blood on its hands. As an example, local hospitals have been hit by Israeli munitions on at least two occasions. While I believe the target in each case was a weapon system, targets within a measured area of such places must be bypassed, even if it later requires infantry assault. I would also say that Israel is guilty of some of the same policy mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan. A plan of “we’re going to stay until all the tunnels have been destroyed” is not a measureable, quantifiable plan and inevitably leads to delay and poor mission accomplishment. Along that line, to argue that Israel is not, in some cases, guilty of using a hammer instead of a fly swatter is a poor argument to have to make. More than the end of Hamas must occur however. I believe the linchpin in the ME is Egypt and their willingness to shut down the pipeline of munitions into Gaza. Unless Egypt is willing to shut down the pipeline into Gaza, Israel will always have a knife at their back. If Egypt does so, and Israel can eventually focus on their eastern front with Jordan and Syria, the life of the people of Gaza could markedly improve. Of course there are extreme events on both sides of the conflict. Recently rockets from Gaza hit a kindergarten structure in Israel. Fortunately that structure was not occupied. Do you seriously think that no one was there was because Hamas warned Israel of the intended target? Or that somehow Hamas knew the structure was unoccupied and it was just a show of defiance? I don't think so. If that rocket had killed children, I suspect there would've been dancing in the streets in Gaza. Was there any jubilation in Israel when the news that a hospital was struck in Gaza? I'll wager, though, that Israel gave notice to Gaza that the hospital was a target and everyone should evacuate. We bombed the crap out of Germany and Japan to end the conflict. The Israelis have the firepower to do the same to Gaza, but have shown great restraint IMHO. The question is, how can Hamas be neutered? Israelis cheering the bombing of Gaza
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 23, 2014 12:36:15 GMT -5
I see spectators that aren't exactly cheering. Pretty much expressionless Id say but probably glad there will be that many less unguided rockets incoming. That's a bad thing?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:42:27 GMT -5
I see spectators that aren't exactly cheering. Pretty much expressionless Id say but probably glad there will be that many less unguided rockets incoming. That's a bad thing? Read the link, you'll learn that they were in fact cheering. I could have posted much more graphic pictures without supporting text, but I did not want to stoop to the gutter level of aponderer's propaganda posting.
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 23, 2014 12:57:25 GMT -5
I see spectators that aren't exactly cheering. Pretty much expressionless Id say but probably glad there will be that many less unguided rockets incoming. That's a bad thing? Read the link, you'll learn that they were in fact cheering. I could have posted much more graphic pictures without supporting text, but I did not want to stoop to the gutter level of aponderer's propaganda posting.Actually I did read the link and also considered the source. Let me know if it remotely approaches Dresden. All IS fair in love, war & survival you know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 13:34:35 GMT -5
Read the link, you'll learn that they were in fact cheering. I could have posted much more graphic pictures without supporting text, but I did not want to stoop to the gutter level of aponderer's propaganda posting.Actually I did read the link and also considered the source. Let me know if it remotely approaches Dresden. All IS fair in love, war & survival you know. Unless you can post photos of people on sofas cheering the bombing of Dresden, I really fail to see to where Dresden comes into this part of this thread.
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 23, 2014 13:41:52 GMT -5
Actually I did read the link and also considered the source. Let me know if it remotely approaches Dresden. All IS fair in love, war & survival you know. Unless you can post photos of people on sofas cheering the bombing of Dresden, I really fail to see to where Dresden comes into this part of this thread. So a mass execution didn't happen there? The guestimated death toll was about 25K civilians. Again I saw no one cheering on the couch but a lot of observation and since Israel was being attacked I wouldn't blame them if they DID cheer. Dresden was well beyond visual range from england. I often watched the night sky light up while sitting on a wing long ago, no cheering but a bit awestruck.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 23, 2014 14:19:15 GMT -5
Interesting to note the fact that leftists are not welcome, and this was written by a leftist, frankly I don't expect honesty from leftie writers.
If lived in the area that Hamas has been bombing, and now had the opportunity to watch them get bombed back I would cheer as well. Frankly any normal person would.
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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 23, 2014 14:19:57 GMT -5
Well aponderer, we had a good discussion for a couple of posts anyway. This one will likely get anchored soon.
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Post by howarewegoingtopay on Jul 23, 2014 14:21:57 GMT -5
Well aponderer, we had a good discussion for a couple of posts anyway. This one will likely get anchored soon. You do know that your post here won't help the situation, and of course my reply to your post also doesn't help. Ignore is really the only solution.
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Post by vosa on Jul 23, 2014 14:53:57 GMT -5
Of course there are extreme events on both sides of the conflict. Recently rockets from Gaza hit a kindergarten structure in Israel. Fortunately that structure was not occupied. Do you seriously think that no one was there was because Hamas warned Israel of the intended target? Or that somehow Hamas knew the structure was unoccupied and it was just a show of defiance? I don't think so. If that rocket had killed children, I suspect there would've been dancing in the streets in Gaza. Was there any jubilation in Israel when the news that a hospital was struck in Gaza? I'll wager, though, that Israel gave notice to Gaza that the hospital was a target and everyone should evacuate. We bombed the crap out of Germany and Japan to end the conflict. The Israelis have the firepower to do the same to Gaza, but have shown great restraint IMHO. The question is, how can Hamas be neutered? Israelis cheering the bombing of Gaza
I’ll see your still photoAnd raise you another videoPalestinians seem to enjoy cheering the deaths of Jews & Gentiles.And now a question BE and his posse won't answer: Israel has the capability to wipe out the entire Gaza Strip in less than 30 minutes. Why don't they?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 16:39:47 GMT -5
Unless you can post photos of people on sofas cheering the bombing of Dresden, I really fail to see to where Dresden comes into this part of this thread. So a mass execution didn't happen there? The guestimated death toll was about 25K civilians. Again I saw no one cheering on the couch but a lot of observation and since Israel was being attacked I wouldn't blame them if they DID cheer. Dresden was well beyond visual range from england. I often watched the night sky light up while sitting on a wing long ago, no cheering but a bit awestruck. Nice story, if you like that sort of thing, but still irrelevant to my post. By the way, if you are going to capitalize the town known as Dresden, why would you not offer the same courtesy to a country known as England?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 16:57:05 GMT -5
Well aponderer, we had a good discussion for a couple of posts anyway. This one will likely get anchored soon. So it should be with the filthy cartoons that he posted. You would chew me out if I posted cartoons of big nosed Jews gleefully lobbing missiles into Gaza. Double standards there pal.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 17:03:05 GMT -5
What an idiotic statement... For the same reason that Russia doesn't wipe out the US. For the same reason that the US doesn't wipe out Russia. For the same reason the the US wouldn't try to wipe out Europe. For the same reason Europe wouldn't try to eliminate the US. Want to try again? I suggest you think before you press the go button next time, save yourself some embarrassment.
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Post by aponderer on Jul 23, 2014 17:07:54 GMT -5
Well aponderer, we had a good discussion for a couple of posts anyway. This one will likely get anchored soon. So it should be with the filthy cartoons that he posted. You would chew me out if I posted cartoons of big nosed Jews gleefully lobbing missiles into Gaza. Double standards there pal. Filthy cartoons? Come to think of it, I don't believe you ever said whether or not you believe Hamas employs, essentially, human shields (i.e., placing arms and armaments in civilian-populated areas). I think "the rest of the world" believes they do.
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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 23, 2014 17:31:19 GMT -5
Well aponderer, we had a good discussion for a couple of posts anyway. This one will likely get anchored soon. So it should be with the filthy cartoons that he posted. You would chew me out if I posted cartoons of big nosed Jews gleefully lobbing missiles into Gaza. Double standards there pal. The cartoon was an accurate portrayal of a widely held opinion that Hamas' history of putting weapon systems in populated areas constitutes an effort to dissuade Israel from attacking the weapon system for fear of causing civilian casualties. I know you work hard to find a way to excuse all Hamas actions, but I'm afraid this one cannot be excused. That said, I also wrote; aponderer, I am as strong a supporter of Israel as anyone on the forum and agree that Hamas has to go if there is to be any chance for peace in Gaza. I have two points to make however.
While the editorial is accurate in its portrayal of Hamas as using human shields, Israel is not without innocent blood on its hands. As an example, local hospitals have been hit by Israeli munitions on at least two occasions. While I believe the target in each case was a weapon system, targets within a measured area of such places must be bypassed, even if it later requires infantry assault.
I would also say that Israel is guilty of some of the same policy mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan. A plan of “we’re going to stay until all the tunnels have been destroyed” is not a measureable, quantifiable plan and inevitably leads to delay and poor mission accomplishment. Along that line, to argue that Israel is not, in some cases, guilty of using a hammer instead of a fly swatter is a poor argument to have to make.I know the comment is insufficient to you because I do not condemn Israel for the simple act of being, but unlike you, I do not consider their presence offensive.
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 23, 2014 17:54:44 GMT -5
So a mass execution didn't happen there? The guestimated death toll was about 25K civilians. Again I saw no one cheering on the couch but a lot of observation and since Israel was being attacked I wouldn't blame them if they DID cheer. Dresden was well beyond visual range from england. I often watched the night sky light up while sitting on a wing long ago, no cheering but a bit awestruck. Nice story, if you like that sort of thing, but still irrelevant to my post. By the way, if you are going to capitalize the town known as Dresden, why would you not offer the same courtesy to a country known as England? No story but fact, sorry you don't see the correlation. Dresden has made a remarkable comeback, england has gone downhill much like we have in the past handful of years.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 18:36:11 GMT -5
So it should be with the filthy cartoons that he posted. You would chew me out if I posted cartoons of big nosed Jews gleefully lobbing missiles into Gaza. Double standards there pal. The cartoon was an accurate portrayal of a widely held opinion that Hamas' history of putting weapon systems in populated areas constitutes an effort to dissuade Israel from attacking the weapon system for fear of causing civilian casualties. I know you work hard to find a way to excuse all Hamas actions, but I'm afraid this one cannot be excused. That said, I also wrote; aponderer, I am as strong a supporter of Israel as anyone on the forum and agree that Hamas has to go if there is to be any chance for peace in Gaza. I have two points to make however.
While the editorial is accurate in its portrayal of Hamas as using human shields, Israel is not without innocent blood on its hands. As an example, local hospitals have been hit by Israeli munitions on at least two occasions. While I believe the target in each case was a weapon system, targets within a measured area of such places must be bypassed, even if it later requires infantry assault.
I would also say that Israel is guilty of some of the same policy mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan. A plan of “we’re going to stay until all the tunnels have been destroyed” is not a measureable, quantifiable plan and inevitably leads to delay and poor mission accomplishment. Along that line, to argue that Israel is not, in some cases, guilty of using a hammer instead of a fly swatter is a poor argument to have to make.I know the comment is insufficient to you because I do not condemn Israel for the simple act of being, but unlike you, I do not consider their presence offensive. Accurate portrayals eh? Okay, let's play your game. Just remember who started it.
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 23, 2014 19:07:06 GMT -5
Meh, BFD there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him
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Post by Cuchulain on Jul 23, 2014 19:57:04 GMT -5
I see your Zionist Conspirator - And raise you one Manchurian Candidate:
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Post by vosa on Jul 23, 2014 20:20:12 GMT -5
What an idiotic statement... For the same reason that Russia doesn't wipe out the US. For the same reason that the US doesn't wipe out Russia. For the same reason the the US wouldn't try to wipe out Europe. For the same reason Europe wouldn't try to eliminate the US. Want to try again? I suggest you think before you press the go button next time, save yourself some embarrassment. And that reason is? Or are you going to embarrass yourself by dodging the question?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 20:31:01 GMT -5
What an idiotic statement... For the same reason that Russia doesn't wipe out the US. For the same reason that the US doesn't wipe out Russia. For the same reason the the US wouldn't try to wipe out Europe. For the same reason Europe wouldn't try to eliminate the US. Want to try again? I suggest you think before you press the go button next time, save yourself some embarrassment. And that reason is? Or are you going to embarrass yourself by dodging the question? Self preservation, self survival call it what you like. Israel could not wipe out the Gaza Strip in 30 minutes and not receive very severe reprisals.
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Post by vosa on Jul 24, 2014 9:14:23 GMT -5
And that reason is? Or are you going to embarrass yourself by dodging the question? Self preservation, self survival call it what you like. Israel could not wipe out the Gaza Strip in 30 minutes and not receive very severe reprisals. From whom?
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