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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 25, 2014 8:11:44 GMT -5
I am probably going to regret asking this question, but does any one have a reliable, defensible number of those people who went from no form of insurance (Medicaid, employer, etc) to having insurance under the ACA? Not sure! where would you go for the data? Government? The insurers might be the one place to look but it may be too early - "enrollments" do not always translate into customers! And when the IRS season roles around and those enrollees find out that the government "generosity" termed a subsidy is in reality a loan against ones honor system income statement? Who knows? The tribalists claim it's a game changer and a genuine legacy. They could be correct. But not right now..... It's really difficult to determine that the ACA is "working" when "working" is not only not defined, it's measured through the use of statistics, rather than count. As we all know, statistics can be made to do just about anything that statistician wants them to do - on either side of the political discussion.
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Post by winston on Jul 25, 2014 8:15:04 GMT -5
its NOT working, nor has anything obama has done Do you have a link, or any form of proof?
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Post by aponderer on Jul 25, 2014 8:17:02 GMT -5
its NOT working, nor has anything obama has done Do you have a link, or any form of proof? Do you have any proof that Obamacare is "working?"
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Post by middleoftheroad on Jul 25, 2014 8:24:37 GMT -5
I’m not sure one can legitimately tell if the ACA is working or, conversely, not working, because there doesn’t appear to be any measures against which its success or lack of success can be evaluated. If someone has such quantifiable objectives, from the Administration and the metric methodology associated with it, I’d appreciate getting a link.
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Post by redleg on Jul 25, 2014 8:49:58 GMT -5
You want agents that were checking on the security of the system prosecuted ? Yeah I guess a secure system that no one could cheat would be a bad thing in your eyes. I don't like "sting" operations... seen too many innocent convenience store clerks hauled away to jail because they couldn't tell that an underage teenager was made up by law enforcement to look 25... given a fake picture ID by the LEO's... and told to go in and buy some beer... store clerk gets fired because she didn't know it was a sting... has a conviction on her record... looked legit to her... I don't like to see innocent people pay for trying to be honest... yeah... that is a bad thing in my eyes... There is nothing "honest" anywhere in this regime. Lisa Jackson may now be hauled to court for destroying emails at the EPA, after an FOIA request was granted. Puppettax is hiring felons, and is now prohibiting states from even doing background checks on their "navigators". This was simply an attempt to find out how vulnerable to fraud Puppettax is. The last best guess I saw was that 20% of those that "signed up" and are getting subsidies are fraudulent.
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 9:42:58 GMT -5
Good article... you can't eat your cake and have it too... not even unions... The issue could create a political headache next year for Democrats facing re-election if disgruntled union members believe the Obama administration and Congress aren't working to fix the problem.
Sometime referred to as... "tweaking" by some...
"If the workers can get benefits that are as good through Obamacare in the exchanges, then why do you need the union?" Laszewski said. "In my mind, what the unions are fearing is that workers for the first time can get very good health benefits for a subsidized cost someplace other than the employer."
Competition... even for the union administrated plans...
"In the rush to achieve its passage, many of the act's provisions were not fully conceived, resulting in unintended consequences that are inconsistent with the promise that those who were satisfied with their employer-sponsored coverage could keep it," Robinson said.
We did n't know what was in it until it was passed and implemented... Pelosi was right...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 9:51:53 GMT -5
I really haven't found anyone who really knows what the hell Obamacare is... much less have it... More than once I've said the enrollment numbers are ridiculously inflated. It's good to see liberals are finally waking up to the reality that no one really wants anything to do with it. Most folks already had healthcare insurance... like me... and didn't need any changes... (unless it was better coverage at less cost)... which is why so many said they didn't like it... they didn't NEED it... the legislation was, and is, primarily aimed at those who do not have insurance coverage at all... and which would keep us taxpayers from having to pay their unpaid bills when they go to the emergency rooms and don't pay their hospital bills and the hospital has to write it off... as a loss... AND to be sure insurance carriers weren't providing their customers with a substandard bill of goods... Those who didn't have insurance originally... for whatever the reason... including the fact that they couldn't afford or even get it... sure want something to do with it...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 9:59:27 GMT -5
Most people who signed up qualified for Medicaid. They didn't realize it at that time that they qualified for it before this whole thing started. Since 3/4 of the states didn't create their own exchanges most went with the federal site. Probably less than half the country are on employer based insurance policies. That part keeps getting delayed mainly for political reasons. Wait and see when it finally goes into effect. The subsidies going out were dismissed by one court but ok'd by another. There is also a story going around where agents posing as enrollees were able to sign up and get subsidies using fictitious names. They did this to see if the site was secure. Guess it ain't ..... Yeah, near as I can tell most "enrolled" folk were into Medicaid. An existing program and available for years! Even people at the lower levels of income prefer Not to become enrolled into a "welfare" type program. They wait until circumstances dictate that they do the dirty deed. The beauty of the ACA was that it tricked them into "enrolling" in an "insurance program". I believe aboutwell when he says he knows no one affected by Obamacare. I don't either. Yet, the myth and legacy is accepted by the media and popular press. So much effort and social turmoil and angst and MONEY ! I suppose the historians will sort it out some proper period several decades from now? You are correct... many of those who signed up were ALREADY eligible for Medicaid but for whatever the reason... heaven forbid pride in NOT wanting to accept welfare... did not apply previously... and then several states have refused to expand Medicaid... denying healthcare to those very same individuals who can least afford to pay for it... "The poor"... we will always have with us... do we try to help them... or do we just throw them aside... and get back up closer to the table we have been fortunate enough to find...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 10:09:38 GMT -5
I've never understood why folk feel obligated to compel "others" to participate in an industry or activity for some political satisfaction derived by the handlers. www.american.com/archive/2014/july/how-risky-is-it-to-be-uninsuredWe all make decisions in our lives. Do we all have to conform to the goals of leadership? Especially, since they (government) is the master of self insurance! Good article... I did notice this comment and chart: "Being uninsured is comparable to many everyday risks"... which shows being "uninsured" the lowest of all the other everyday risks... which, if we are really going to try to attack one of those risks... being "uninsured" might be the best one to attack...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 10:11:23 GMT -5
Some ACA subscribers have begun howling about their deductibles already. My opinion is that high deductibles are good; insurance is to help you survive (financially) a big problem, not help you get a shingles shot or some poison ivy cream. If SCOTUS decides the subsidies are not legal, the howling will grow very loud indeed. While I agree that people should pay for routine doctor visits out-of-pocket, it would seem that those who most need ObamaCare TM would be least likely to find higher deductibles affordable. And the majority of those should qualify for a subsidy... or qualify for Medicaid...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 10:16:41 GMT -5
I really haven't found anyone who really knows what the hell Obamacare is... much less have it... Ignorance is bliss... In general (except for the long list of executive order changes to the law), doesn't Obamacare determine what should be covered in everybody's health insurance, no matter whether that insurance is obtained privately (or through ones employer) or through an exchange? Some provisions of it do... yes... like being covered on parents insurance up to age 26... and providing coverage for pre-existing conditions... and elimination of maximum payments for some conditions... yes... in that context, many have had changes in their coverage as a result of the law... bringing substandard policies up to speed... I dare say most are ignorant of many, or most, of those changes... or not effected... like me...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 10:25:12 GMT -5
While I agree that people should pay for routine doctor visits out-of-pocket, it would seem that those who most need ObamaCare TM would be least likely to find higher deductibles affordable. And the majority of those should qualify for a subsidy... or qualify for Medicaid... I thought the subsidy only paid for the monthly premiums. Are you saying that the subsidy would help pay medical expenses that are accumulating against the deductible?
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 10:26:42 GMT -5
Do you have a link, or any form of proof? Do you have any proof that Obamacare is "working?" Obviously, it's working for some... they applied and found out that they were already eligible for Medicaid...
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 10:30:10 GMT -5
And the majority of those should qualify for a subsidy... or qualify for Medicaid... I thought the subsidy only paid for the monthly premiums. Are you saying that the subsidy would help pay medical expenses that are accumulating against the deductible? No... but a savings on the monthly premium would translate into a savings on paying the higher deductible or "out-of-pocket" costs...
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Post by redleg on Jul 25, 2014 10:43:51 GMT -5
Do you have any proof that Obamacare is "working?" Obviously, it's working for some... they applied and found out that they were already eligible for Medicaid... No, Puppet tax MADE them eligible for Medicaid. The qualifications were lowered to the point that a family of 4 making $90,000 a year was eligible. It was simply another way to get more people on the public dole.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Jul 25, 2014 11:19:25 GMT -5
While I agree that people should pay for routine doctor visits out-of-pocket, it would seem that those who most need ObamaCare TM would be least likely to find higher deductibles affordable. That is true. There are premium subsidies, recently struck down. For even poorer people (defined as income lower than a certain percentage of the poverty level), there are subsidies for the deductibles. These don't get a lot of publicity because they are harder to get. In addition, you MUST purchase insurance through a Federal exchange in order to obtain any kind of deductibles, and the Federal exchange was a mess. I would imagine the idea is to get a lot of plans in front of people, because the success of Wal-Mart has taught the government that most Americans only look at price. So, if your price is there next to your competitor, and they're both standardized (metal labeled) plans, customers can comparison shop. Of course, people should do that on their own, but judging by my recent experiences with home improvement contractors, they don't. [Those guys used the same sales tactics car salesmen use, and at least one of them seemed offended that I wouldn't accept his word that his price was a good one.] I would imagine if SCOTUS strikes down the premium subsidies, deductible subsidies are the next target. At that point, the law can't help the poor without some kind of constitutionally valid restructuring.
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Post by Ravenchamp on Jul 25, 2014 11:58:10 GMT -5
its NOT working, nor has anything obama has done Do you have a link, or any form of proof? yep daily visibility
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 12:21:59 GMT -5
Obviously, it's working for some... they applied and found out that they were already eligible for Medicaid... No, Puppet tax MADE them eligible for Medicaid. The qualifications were lowered to the point that a family of 4 making $90,000 a year was eligible. It was simply another way to get more people on the public dole. I don't think you're gonna back that up... The Affordable Care Act of 2010, signed by President Obama on March 23, 2010, creates a national Medicaid minimum eligibility level of 133% of the federal poverty level ($29,700 for a family of four in 2011) for nearly all Americans under age 65.
www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Eligibility/Downloads/2014-Federal-Poverty-level-charts.pdf
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Post by rocketwolf on Jul 25, 2014 12:36:30 GMT -5
A hell of a difference between government people looking for flaws in a program not to screw people over and a sting like you mentioned. So you have not changed my idea that a secure system is a bad idea in your Democrat eyes.
Basically the same thing... and I'm not trying to change your mind... some people just choose to remain ignorant all their lives... and can't be changed... These officials should have done a better job checking... without being tricked into something... they should have been challenged sooner than they were... The idea that an inspector and walk in and ask a bureaucrat "Are you doing a good job" is amusing if not stupid. Speaking of choosing to remain ignorant ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Post by aboutwell on Jul 25, 2014 12:42:53 GMT -5
Basically the same thing... and I'm not trying to change your mind... some people just choose to remain ignorant all their lives... and can't be changed... These officials should have done a better job checking... without being tricked into something... they should have been challenged sooner than they were... The idea that an inspector can walk in and ask a bureaucrat "Are you doing a good job" is amusing, if not stupid.
Speaking of choosing to remain ignorant ................
I didn't say, nor imply, that... had the officials been doing a better job, a point would have been reached where these "stingers" would have failed in their efforts to thwart the system... THAT'S doing a better job... And you seem quite qualified to speak of someone remaining ignorant...
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Post by dogbert on Jul 25, 2014 12:51:16 GMT -5
If the law is so great how come over half of the people hate it? Or is that just the liberals being way smarter than everybody else?
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Post by redleg on Jul 25, 2014 12:53:06 GMT -5
No, Puppet tax MADE them eligible for Medicaid. The qualifications were lowered to the point that a family of 4 making $90,000 a year was eligible. It was simply another way to get more people on the public dole. I don't think you're gonna back that up... The Affordable Care Act of 2010, signed by President Obama on March 23, 2010, creates a national Medicaid minimum eligibility level of 133% of the federal poverty level ($29,700 for a family of four in 2011) for nearly all Americans under age 65.
www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Eligibility/Downloads/2014-Federal-Poverty-level-charts.pdf
It goes by state. Each state has it's own 'poverty level'. Therefore, 133% is different for different states.
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Post by rocketwolf on Jul 25, 2014 13:08:20 GMT -5
The idea that an inspector can walk in and ask a bureaucrat "Are you doing a good job" is amusing, if not stupid.
Speaking of choosing to remain ignorant ................
I didn't say, nor imply, that... had the officials been doing a better job, a point would have been reached where these "stingers" would have failed in their efforts to thwart the system... THAT'S doing a better job... And you seem quite qualified to speak of someone remaining ignorant...
Well in your case its pretty obvious.
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Post by vosa on Jul 25, 2014 13:29:42 GMT -5
its NOT working, nor has anything obama has done Do you have a link, or any form of proof? Would you accept the opinion of the American people as proof?
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Post by magnaestback on Jul 25, 2014 14:49:48 GMT -5
Do you have a link, or any form of proof? Do you have any proof that Obamacare is "working?" If ER rooms being backed up and doctors retiring early is an indication well yeah I guess it is.
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