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Post by bowiebruce on Sept 12, 2014 12:42:38 GMT -5
I didn't post to this thread so why the gratuitous inclusion of my name? Neither had I... This is my first, and only, post on this thread... LOL
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 12:53:42 GMT -5
I think that under the circumstances, the Ravens HAD to take some kind of action... suspension, perhaps... termination, not necessarily... "death penalty" to his career, no way... It's about reputation. Rice damaged the Ravens' brand. Employees who do that get fired. And he damaged the NFL's brand. They can't fire him, so they made him unhireable. All of this is told to players, known and understood by them, and in their contracts, when they sign. They get paid, and paid well, to play a game but also to make sure that people watch that game. Damage the brand and alienating customers amounts to failing to discharge their duty to their employer. Even in a union shop that'll get you fired. Ray is nowhere he did not put himself. There's no reason for lenience. I believe the tolerance for unforgivable misconduct that you display, aboutwell, is largely the reason why we have so much of it. You *must* hold people to a high standard, and the punishment for failure has to really hurt - or they will misbehave. The evidence is clear: most people do not behave well without dreadful consequences for failing to do so. I agree with much of your comments here... and have stated as much... but like I said, I'd probably take the case... and win... I do think damage was done to the Ravens... and I don't have a problem with them disciplining him... but is that discipline excessive... and is it consistant with other discipline metted out for similar or other offenses... there are thousands of players and associates in the NFL and you can bet many of them do things that if it were known would bring at least a bit of shame to their teams... and possibly hurt them at the ticket office... Michael Vick's dog fighting is a good example... and he's still playing... As for tolerance for what you call "unforgivable misconduct"... I don't think it is "unforgivable misconduct... while I DO believe it is misconduct... and deserves punishment... that's why employers have things such as anger management programs to deal with things like this... (hell, my former employer even offered a smoking cessation program)... you're saying Rice "can't be helped"... I am saying he can... (or at least I believe he can until he proves different... has Michael Vick fought dogs lately?... and he went to jail)... and have dealt with a number of situations similar to this one that had proven that to be true... As for the NFL and the "Death Penalty?"... way too excessive... but of course they're worried about $$$ too...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 12:57:54 GMT -5
Neither had I... This is my first, and only, post on this thread... LOL ?
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 13:04:27 GMT -5
I think that under the circumstances, the Ravens HAD to take some kind of action... suspension, perhaps... termination, not necessarily... "death penalty" to his career, no way... I agree, what was handed out is just as much a punishment for his wife, not fair to her. May I suggest ---Rice give one half his salary to a help group for 1 or 2 yrs. On top of that 1000 hours community service or something on that order. The death penalty should only go to members of other teams JK While I think some discipline is appropriate... I think the discipline you suggest is much too excessive as well...
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Post by Evil Yoda on Sept 12, 2014 13:13:10 GMT -5
I do think damage was done to the Ravens... and I don't have a problem with them disciplining him... but is that discipline excessive... and is it consistant with other discipline metted out for similar or other offenses... There are no similar cases in team history, therefore they are breaking new ground. There is no benchmark. In the video, I saw Ray Rice deliver a roundhouse punch, closed fist, to a woman half his size. It was a powerful enough blow to bounce the temporal lobe of her head off the railing. Either blow could have knocked her cold. Either blow could have killed her. No, I don't believe the discipline is excessive. Of course, the other purpose Rice now serves is to be a warning to others. Michael Vick's dog fighting is a good example... and he's still playing... Vick went to prison, and then applied for (and received) reinstatement. Rice can apply for and may receive reinstatement eventually, too. Whether he'd receive it, I don't know. As for tolerance for what you call "unforgivable misconduct"... I don't think it is "unforgivable misconduct... That would be your low standards, I'm afraid. Mine are relentlessly high; I demand a lot from people, and those who fail me, I have nothing further to do with. that's why employers have things such as anger management programs to deal with things like this... (hell, my former employer even offered a smoking cessation program)... you're saying Rice "can't be helped"... Couple of points here: first, it isn't the employer's responsibility to "help" a troublesome employee. Getting fired might be the first step towards hitting rock bottom. Evidence shows us that most offenders have to hit rock bottom before they even realize they need help. Second, Rice doesn't need the Ravens' help "reforming" himself - those resources are everywhere. Third, recidivism rates tend to suggest that early life sets patterns of behavior that never change. Those who become violent stay that way, those who turn to crime rarely turn away, and so forth. I regard it as foolish to assume reform is likely, or even possible, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary. To do so is simply optimism unsupported by logic. As for the NFL and the "Death Penalty?"... way too excessive... but of course they're worried about $$$ too... Low standards again. But I'm sure the NFLPA has advocates. Some of them might even be as skilled as you claim to be. If Rice has any legitimate grievance, they will be compelled to represent him, despite the fact that it will make the public believe they support wife beating. My guess is they're hoping he slinks back under the rock where he belongs. But we'll see.
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Post by vosa on Sept 12, 2014 13:41:07 GMT -5
I do think damage was done to the Ravens... and I don't have a problem with them disciplining him... but is that discipline excessive... and is it consistant with other discipline metted out for similar or other offenses... There are no similar cases in team history, therefore they are breaking new ground. There is no benchmark. In the video, I saw Ray Rice deliver a roundhouse punch, closed fist, to a woman half his size. It was a powerful enough blow to bounce the temporal lobe of her head off the railing. Either blow could have knocked her cold. Either blow could have killed her. No, I don't believe the discipline is excessive. Of course, the other purpose Rice now serves is to be a warning to others. Michael Vick's dog fighting is a good example... and he's still playing... Vick went to prison, and then applied for (and received) reinstatement. Rice can apply for and may receive reinstatement eventually, too. Whether he'd receive it, I don't know. As for tolerance for what you call "unforgivable misconduct"... I don't think it is "unforgivable misconduct... That would be your low standards, I'm afraid. Mine are relentlessly high; I demand a lot from people, and those who fail me, I have nothing further to do with.
that's why employers have things such as anger management programs to deal with things like this... (hell, my former employer even offered a smoking cessation program)... you're saying Rice "can't be helped"... Couple of points here: first, it isn't the employer's responsibility to "help" a troublesome employee. Getting fired might be the first step towards hitting rock bottom. Evidence shows us that most offenders have to hit rock bottom before they even realize they need help. Second, Rice doesn't need the Ravens' help "reforming" himself - those resources are everywhere. Third, recidivism rates tend to suggest that early life sets patterns of behavior that never change. Those who become violent stay that way, those who turn to crime rarely turn away, and so forth. I regard it as foolish to assume reform is likely, or even possible, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary. To do so is simply optimism unsupported by logic. As for the NFL and the "Death Penalty?"... way too excessive... but of course they're worried about $$$ too... Low standards again. But I'm sure the NFLPA has advocates. Some of them might even be as skilled as you claim to be. If Rice has any legitimate grievance, they will be compelled to represent him, despite the fact that it will make the public believe they support wife beating. My guess is they're hoping he slinks back under the rock where he belongs. But we'll see. So you've dumped everybody in your life who has, even once, failed to live up to your standards? I seriously doubt that. But if it is true I respectfully suggest you consider adding a modicum of tolerance, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and a reluctance to be judgmental to your list of standards.
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Post by Ravenchamp on Sept 12, 2014 14:29:16 GMT -5
If Goodell had done just job at the begining and banned Rice 8 games there wouldn't be this hige uproar. People would have said he got what he deserved and it would be over. Goodell will most likely resign or be forced out, can't say I'm sorry. He's too much like Boo Boo from the Baltimore expansion years.
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Post by Evil Yoda on Sept 12, 2014 14:40:56 GMT -5
So you've dumped everybody in your life who has, even once, failed to live up to your standards? I seriously doubt that. But if it is true I respectfully suggest you consider adding a modicum of tolerance, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and a reluctance to be judgmental to your list of standards. It depends on what you mean by dumped. I never give a business two chances to disappoint me. I maintain cordial relations with certain people, among them family members, but would never trust them with responsibility, access to property, and would assume they were the cause of a problem they are involved in, because of their past. I didn't start out that way. After I got burned a few times by people I learned that trust is never automatic, it must be earned, and that individuals who disappoint once will do so repeatedly. I am not asking you to have standards like that. Maybe the people you know are different, or maybe screw-ups don't offend you the way they do me.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 16:10:22 GMT -5
As for tolerance for what you call "unforgivable misconduct"... I don't think it is "unforgivable misconduct... That would be your low standards, I'm afraid. Mine are relentlessly high; I demand a lot from people, and those who fail me, I have nothing further to do with. that's why employers have things such as anger management programs to deal with things like this... (hell, my former employer even offered a smoking cessation program)... you're saying Rice "can't be helped"... Couple of points here: first, it isn't the employer's responsibility to "help" a troublesome employee. Getting fired might be the first step towards hitting rock bottom. Evidence shows us that most offenders have to hit rock bottom before they even realize they need help. Second, Rice doesn't need the Ravens' help "reforming" himself - those resources are everywhere. Third, recidivism rates tend to suggest that early life sets patterns of behavior that never change. Those who become violent stay that way, those who turn to crime rarely turn away, and so forth. I regard it as foolish to assume reform is likely, or even possible, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary. To do so is simply optimism unsupported by logic. As for the NFL and the "Death Penalty?"... way too excessive... but of course they're worried about $$$ too... Low standards again. But I'm sure the NFLPA has advocates. Some of them might even be as skilled as you claim to be. If Rice has any legitimate grievance, they will be compelled to represent him, despite the fact that it will make the public believe they support wife beating. My guess is they're hoping he slinks back under the rock where he belongs. But we'll see. I doubt seriously that your standards are really any higher than mine... or even as high... I just realize that many other are not able or willing to attain them... and am willing to help such people keep from losing what little ass they may have left... nobody is perfect... not even me... And while I agree with you that it is NOT an employer's responsibility to help someone with a drug, alcohol, or some other problem... some employers actually see beyond the problems in their employees and see a decent human being in there somewhere... and offer help top them when they need it... not everybody can be like you and me... I've never had to go to a treatment program myself... but I'd NEVER knock someone who had an opportunity to do so because of an employer who really cared about them and their other employees...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 16:12:06 GMT -5
There are no similar cases in team history, therefore they are breaking new ground. There is no benchmark. In the video, I saw Ray Rice deliver a roundhouse punch, closed fist, to a woman half his size. It was a powerful enough blow to bounce the temporal lobe of her head off the railing. Either blow could have knocked her cold. Either blow could have killed her. No, I don't believe the discipline is excessive. Of course, the other purpose Rice now serves is to be a warning to others. Vick went to prison, and then applied for (and received) reinstatement. Rice can apply for and may receive reinstatement eventually, too. Whether he'd receive it, I don't know. That would be your low standards, I'm afraid. Mine are relentlessly high; I demand a lot from people, and those who fail me, I have nothing further to do with.
Couple of points here: first, it isn't the employer's responsibility to "help" a troublesome employee. Getting fired might be the first step towards hitting rock bottom. Evidence shows us that most offenders have to hit rock bottom before they even realize they need help. Second, Rice doesn't need the Ravens' help "reforming" himself - those resources are everywhere. Third, recidivism rates tend to suggest that early life sets patterns of behavior that never change. Those who become violent stay that way, those who turn to crime rarely turn away, and so forth. I regard it as foolish to assume reform is likely, or even possible, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary. To do so is simply optimism unsupported by logic. Low standards again. But I'm sure the NFLPA has advocates. Some of them might even be as skilled as you claim to be. If Rice has any legitimate grievance, they will be compelled to represent him, despite the fact that it will make the public believe they support wife beating. My guess is they're hoping he slinks back under the rock where he belongs. But we'll see. So you've dumped everybody in your life who has, even once, failed to live up to your standards? I seriously doubt that. But if it is true I respectfully suggest you consider adding a modicum of tolerance, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and a reluctance to be judgmental to your list of standards. Finally... something on which we agree... could this be a start... nahhhhhh...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 12, 2014 16:17:08 GMT -5
So you've dumped everybody in your life who has, even once, failed to live up to your standards? I seriously doubt that. But if it is true I respectfully suggest you consider adding a modicum of tolerance, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and a reluctance to be judgmental to your list of standards. It depends on what you mean by dumped. I never give a business two chances to disappoint me. I maintain cordial relations with certain people, among them family members, but would never trust them with responsibility, access to property, and would assume they were the cause of a problem they are involved in, because of their past. I didn't start out that way. After I got burned a few times by people I learned that trust is never automatic, it must be earned, and that individuals who disappoint once will do so repeatedly. I am not asking you to have standards like that. Maybe the people you know are different, or maybe screw-ups don't offend you the way they do me. Agreed on some things you said here... I always say "earned trust" is much better than "blind trust"... my wife is just the opposite... she trusts everybody till they prove to her that they can't be trusted... I tend to be skeptical and wait till they have proven themselves to be what I consider trustworthy... and believe me... that ain't easy...
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Post by vosa on Sept 12, 2014 16:51:44 GMT -5
So you've dumped everybody in your life who has, even once, failed to live up to your standards? I seriously doubt that. But if it is true I respectfully suggest you consider adding a modicum of tolerance, understanding, compassion, forgiveness and a reluctance to be judgmental to your list of standards. It depends on what you mean by dumped. I never give a business two chances to disappoint me. I maintain cordial relations with certain people, among them family members, but would never trust them with responsibility, access to property, and would assume they were the cause of a problem they are involved in, because of their past. I didn't start out that way. After I got burned a few times by people I learned that trust is never automatic, it must be earned, and that individuals who disappoint once will do so repeatedly. I am not asking you to have standards like that. Maybe the people you know are different, or maybe screw-ups don't offend you the way they do me. I used dumped as a synonym for "I have nothing further to do with". "
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Post by Evil Yoda on Sept 12, 2014 18:02:04 GMT -5
I doubt seriously that your standards are really any higher than mine... or even as high... I just realize that many other are not able or willing to attain them... and am willing to help such people keep from losing what little ass they may have left... nobody is perfect... not even me... There's nothing special about me. If I can keep out of trouble, anyone can. And should. And while I agree with you that it is NOT an employer's responsibility to help someone with a drug, alcohol, or some other problem... some employers actually see beyond the problems in their employees and see a decent human being in there somewhere... and offer help top them when they need it... not everybody can be like you and me... I've never had to go to a treatment program myself... but I'd NEVER knock someone who had an opportunity to do so because of an employer who really cared about them and their other employees... I'm not saying I'd forbid employers from offering such programs. I just wouldn't require them to offer such programs, either, and would permit them to fire an employee who failed them if that is their choice. A lot of liberals seem to believe that an employer should be responsible for fixing his employees mistakes. My view of the relationship is simpler: an employee sells his labor to an employer, both of them enter into that transaction or not as suits them.
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Post by aponderer on Sept 13, 2014 1:58:01 GMT -5
Greg Hardy, convicted of assaulting and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend is still with the Panthers. "Goodell, though, has a track record of leniency on domestic violence cases. Of the 47 incidents of NFL players arrested or charged for violent crimes toward women since he became commissioner in 2006, none resulted in a suspension of more than one game, according to the Houston Chronicle." Except for Ray Rice, that is...As I posted before, the NFL has a double standard.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 13, 2014 5:07:18 GMT -5
Greg Hardy, convicted of assaulting and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend is still with the Panthers. "Goodell, though, has a track record of leniency on domestic violence cases. Of the 47 incidents of NFL players arrested or charged for violent crimes toward women since he became commissioner in 2006, none resulted in a suspension of more than one game, according to the Houston Chronicle." Except for Ray Rice, that is...As I posted before, the NFL has a double standard. As I said before... I'd represent him... and likely win... 47 out of over 4,000 in is just over 1% of the employees (players) in 7 years... that about .1% of the NFL "work force"... not bad... especially considering the physysical aspect of the job... But when you get caught "red handed" like this... and it brings public attention and embarrassment to a team... (and threatens their front "gate")... or league... some discipline is certainly in order... and even recommended by me...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 13, 2014 5:18:30 GMT -5
I doubt seriously that your standards are really any higher than mine... or even as high... I just realize that many other are not able or willing to attain them... and am willing to help such people keep from losing what little ass they may have left... nobody is perfect... not even me... There's nothing special about me. If I can keep out of trouble, anyone can. And should. And while I agree with you that it is NOT an employer's responsibility to help someone with a drug, alcohol, or some other problem... some employers actually see beyond the problems in their employees and see a decent human being in there somewhere... and offer help top them when they need it... not everybody can be like you and me... I've never had to go to a treatment program myself... but I'd NEVER knock someone who had an opportunity to do so because of an employer who really cared about them and their other employees... I'm not saying I'd forbid employers from offering such programs. I just wouldn't require them to offer such programs, either, and would permit them to fire an employee who failed them if that is their choice. A lot of liberals seem to believe that an employer should be responsible for fixing his employees mistakes. My view of the relationship is simpler: an employee sells his labor to an employer, both of them enter into that transaction or not as suits them. There is something special about me, EY... but only to me... and many times employers , while not being forced to do so, can improve their own workforce by working with the employees even if it cost the employer a little $$$... for instance, a non-smoker is sick less often and missed less time on the job... and often performs even better while on the job... I worked to get my employer to initiate and pay the (reduced) fees for a physical fitness program for it's employees at a local health club... (the health club even worked with us)... the results?... less time missed from work... and a healthier work force... a better all around employee... BOTH the company and the individual benefited... People working together for the benefit of both... one provides a little $$$,... the other provides a little physical and mental effort... BOTH put something in... BOTH get something out... No, they don't have to... but they can... IF they want a better workforce, less turnover, and less time spent training new employees...
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Post by rentedmule on Sept 13, 2014 5:36:07 GMT -5
Greg Hardy, convicted of assaulting and threatening to kill his ex-girlfriend is still with the Panthers. "Goodell, though, has a track record of leniency on domestic violence cases. Of the 47 incidents of NFL players arrested or charged for violent crimes toward women since he became commissioner in 2006, none resulted in a suspension of more than one game, according to the Houston Chronicle." Except for Ray Rice, that is...As I posted before, the NFL has a double standard. As I said before... I'd represent him... and likely win... 47 out of over 4,000 in is just over 1% of the employees (players) in 7 years... that about .1% of the NFL "work force"... not bad... especially considering the physysical aspect of the job... But when you get caught "red handed" like this... and it brings public attention and embarrassment to a team... (and threatens their front "gate")... or league... some discipline is certainly in order... and even recommended by me... Your professional skills are legendary I'm sure. "Win" what? The job that he has held and has put him well into the evil 1%? He HAD that, and preferred to utilize his cultural baggage as opposed to continue exploiting his athletic talents and his crafted image of corporate spokesperson. (which is what got him into the 1%) Clever "representatives" and incompetent public servants saw to it that OJ Simpson "won". What did he win? You may see employers as pathetic fools only to be manipulated by silver tonged union wordsmiths , but employers have many (often thousands) of people who depend on them to preserve the business that nourishes their "other" employees.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 13, 2014 6:24:09 GMT -5
As I said before... I'd represent him... and likely win... 47 out of over 4,000 in is just over 1% of the employees (players) in 7 years... that about .1% of the NFL "work force"... not bad... especially considering the physysical aspect of the job... But when you get caught "red handed" like this... and it brings public attention and embarrassment to a team... (and threatens their front "gate")... or league... some discipline is certainly in order... and even recommended by me... Your professional skills are legendary I'm sure. "Win" what? The job that he has held and has put him well into the evil 1%? He HAD that, and preferred to utilize his cultural baggage as opposed to continue exploiting his athletic talents and his crafted image of corporate spokesperson. (which is what got him into the 1%) Clever "representatives" and incompetent public servants saw to it that OJ Simpson "won". What did he win? You may see employers as pathetic fools only to be manipulated by silver tonged union wordsmiths , but employers have many (often thousands) of people who depend on them to preserve the business that nourishes their "other" employees. My job... as I saw it... was to protect not only the employee... but the company as well... I have even suggested that discipline imposed by the company be doubled... My apologizes for using the word "win"... (I just used it because I thought you guys would understand it better)... I chose never to use that word when processing grievances... I always preferred to used the word "resolved"... or "prevailed"... because there are no clear "winners"...
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Post by stevez51 on Sept 13, 2014 7:11:52 GMT -5
The NFLPA will get Rice to meet with Tony Dungy. After sessions with him and his OK, he will be allowed to play again. The league respects his decisions. Don't know if the Ravens will resign him but a RB needy team will.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 13, 2014 15:03:11 GMT -5
The NFLPA will get Rice to meet with Tony Dungy. After sessions with him and his OK, he will be allowed to play again. The league respects his decisions. Don't know if the Ravens will resign him but a RB needy team will. Sounds about right...
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Post by Evil Yoda on Sept 13, 2014 15:09:26 GMT -5
Chant now is the NFLPA will file a grievance on Rice's behalf whether he asks them to or not. Leaving them in the political unpleasant position of supporting wife beating.
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Post by vosa on Sept 13, 2014 18:16:29 GMT -5
Chant now is the NFLPA will file a grievance on Rice's behalf whether he asks them to or not. Leaving them in the political unpleasant position of supporting wife beating. Could they really be that stupid? I wouldn't bet against it seeing as how they are a union.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 13, 2014 20:17:21 GMT -5
Chant now is the NFLPA will file a grievance on Rice's behalf whether he asks them to or not. Leaving them in the political unpleasant position of supporting wife beating. No, it doesn't... if you knew anything about unions you would know that it is NOT true... I have represented MANY individuals for doing various things... and just filing a grievance for them... even when it was not initiated nby them... did NOT mean I was in agreement with whatever offense they had committed... The entire membership of the NFLPA could suffer from this action by the Ravens and the NFL... it should the the players association to initiate action... even if Rice doesn't... I have done the same in the best interests of the members... not necessarily the member...
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Post by Evil Yoda on Sept 14, 2014 9:04:05 GMT -5
No, it doesn't... if you knew anything about unions you would know that it is NOT true... I have represented MANY individuals for doing various things... and just filing a grievance for them... even when it was not initiated nby them... did NOT mean I was in agreement with whatever offense they had committed... The entire membership of the NFLPA could suffer from this action by the Ravens and the NFL... it should the the players association to initiate action... even if Rice doesn't... I have done the same in the best interests of the members... not necessarily the member... You misunderstand me. It is not about whether the NFLPA as a matter of policy finds wife-beating acceptable. Or even whether its leadership or members find it acceptable (no doubt most don't and a few do). It is about what the public will think. And the public will think they support the right of a player to beat his wife/girlfriend/sig other. That's what "political" which should have been "politically" meant in my initial statement.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 14, 2014 11:44:43 GMT -5
No, it doesn't... if you knew anything about unions you would know that it is NOT true... I have represented MANY individuals for doing various things... and just filing a grievance for them... even when it was not initiated nby them... did NOT mean I was in agreement with whatever offense they had committed... The entire membership of the NFLPA could suffer from this action by the Ravens and the NFL... it should the the players association to initiate action... even if Rice doesn't... I have done the same in the best interests of the members... not necessarily the member... You misunderstand me. It is not about whether the NFLPA as a matter of policy finds wife-beating acceptable. Or even whether its leadership or members find it acceptable (no doubt most don't and a few do). It is about what the public will think. And the public will think they support the right of a player to beat his wife/girlfriend/sig other. That's what "political" which should have been "politically" meant in my initial statement. Then you should have said something like this: "Leaving them in the politically unpleasant position where the public thinks they support wife beating."How many times have you guys accused ME of the very thing you are saying here... supporting something I don't support... just because I support some aspect of it... Like I said... it would really be helpful if some of you guys really understood unions... that "public" you speak of is like you... they "think" something about unions that is not true...
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