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Post by cyclegeek on Sept 18, 2014 11:34:36 GMT -5
Not doing everything we can to confront these groups will also be a waste of American lives. Our only options are to confront these people with armed and trained soldiers, or do nothing to prevent the loss of unarmed and innocent civilians. Yeah... and it's as bad now as it was years ago... as expected... no matter when we leave... insurgents... (now we call 'em terrorists)... fighting against their own government... just like it was in 2003... so, what good did that 4,000+ lives lost there over the last 10 years accomplish?... not a damn thing... You can bomb 'em to hell and back and they'll still be crawling out of the cracks... you ain't gonna kill 'em all... So we should just leave them alone then? And then what if they do attack us here? I'd contend that we're in the same place because we have to play by a different set of rules than the nuts do. But I somewhat agree with you, if we're not going to go an take care of business then it seems somewhat pointless.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 11:44:37 GMT -5
Yeah... and it's as bad now as it was years ago... as expected... no matter when we leave... insurgents... (now we call 'em terrorists)... fighting against their own government... just like it was in 2003... so, what good did that 4,000+ lives lost there over the last 10 years accomplish?... not a damn thing... You can bomb 'em to hell and back and they'll still be crawling out of the cracks... you ain't gonna kill 'em all... So we should just leave them alone then? And then what if they do attack us here? I'd contend that we're in the same place because we have to play by a different set of rules than the nuts do. But I somewhat agree with you, if we're not going to go an take care of business then it seems somewhat pointless. We were basically leaving them alone... and they were making isolated attacks against each other here and there... till the trigger happy Ronald Raygun came along and just had to play war games in the Gulf of Sidra... and riled up the whole damn bunch of 'em over there... and they've wanted to kill us ever since... Heck... even Iran during the Carter years only wanted to kill the Shah... and didn't want us to let him seek treatment here in the U.S...
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Post by cyclegeek on Sept 18, 2014 12:14:40 GMT -5
So we should just leave them alone then? And then what if they do attack us here? I'd contend that we're in the same place because we have to play by a different set of rules than the nuts do. But I somewhat agree with you, if we're not going to go an take care of business then it seems somewhat pointless. We were basically leaving them alone... and they were making isolated attacks against each other here and there... till the trigger happy Ronald Raygun came along and just had to play war games in the Gulf of Sidra... and riled up the whole damn bunch of 'em over there... and they've wanted to kill us ever since... Heck... even Iran during the Carter years only wanted to kill the Shah... and didn't want us to let him seek treatment here in the U.S... That really doesn't answer my questions. I don't really care about the history of how we got here. I care about what you think will happen moving forward, and how we should react if things don't go all sunshine and roses.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 12:38:58 GMT -5
So we should just leave them alone then? And then what if they do attack us here? I'd contend that we're in the same place because we have to play by a different set of rules than the nuts do. But I somewhat agree with you, if we're not going to go an take care of business then it seems somewhat pointless. We were basically leaving them alone... and they were making isolated attacks against each other here and there... till the trigger happy Ronald Raygun came along and just had to play war games in the Gulf of Sidra... and riled up the whole damn bunch of 'em over there... and they've wanted to kill us ever since... Heck... even Iran during the Carter years only wanted to kill the Shah... and didn't want us to let him seek treatment here in the U.S... These people have been saying for a VERY long time that they are intent on global conquest. This has zero to do with Reagan, or even Israel back in the 1940s. This goes back before the Turks marched on Vienna, the Moores occupied Spain, or Vlad the Impaler got his name. Islam's roots are in global jihad, and we ignore their threats at our peril. You can pretend we aren't at war with them all you want. They are at war with us - whether we like it or not. At some point, boots on the ground WILL be necessary. If for no other reason then they decide to cross into Turkey, and our NATO obligations demand it.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 13:17:05 GMT -5
We were basically leaving them alone... and they were making isolated attacks against each other here and there... till the trigger happy Ronald Raygun came along and just had to play war games in the Gulf of Sidra... and riled up the whole damn bunch of 'em over there... and they've wanted to kill us ever since... Heck... even Iran during the Carter years only wanted to kill the Shah... and didn't want us to let him seek treatment here in the U.S... These people have been saying for a VERY long time that they are intent on global conquest. This has zero to do with Reagan, or even Israel back in the 1940s. This goes back before the Turks marched on Vienna, the Moores occupied Spain, or Vlad the Impaler got his name. Islam's roots are in global jihad, and we ignore their threats at our peril. You can pretend we aren't at war with them all you want. They are at war with us - whether we like it or not. At some point, boots on the ground WILL be necessary. If for no other reason then they decide to cross into Turkey, and our NATO obligations demand it. Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia...
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 14:21:44 GMT -5
These people have been saying for a VERY long time that they are intent on global conquest. This has zero to do with Reagan, or even Israel back in the 1940s. This goes back before the Turks marched on Vienna, the Moores occupied Spain, or Vlad the Impaler got his name. Islam's roots are in global jihad, and we ignore their threats at our peril. You can pretend we aren't at war with them all you want. They are at war with us - whether we like it or not. At some point, boots on the ground WILL be necessary. If for no other reason then they decide to cross into Turkey, and our NATO obligations demand it. Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia... Reagan isn't even a blip on the Islamists radar. I understand your hyper-partisanship requires you to post this nonsense, but it just isn't true. No more than it is for Carter, or Truman who supported the creation of Israel, or FDR before him (the Islamists were Axis powers during WWII). These people are at perpetual war with everything not part of their particular version of Islam. Boots on the ground or not, there will be more dead Americans. As I said above, the only question is whether or not they'll be armed, trained, and able to defend themselves, or innocent, unarmed civilians.
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Post by rocketwolf on Sept 18, 2014 15:28:08 GMT -5
These people have been saying for a VERY long time that they are intent on global conquest. This has zero to do with Reagan, or even Israel back in the 1940s. This goes back before the Turks marched on Vienna, the Moores occupied Spain, or Vlad the Impaler got his name. Islam's roots are in global jihad, and we ignore their threats at our peril. You can pretend we aren't at war with them all you want. They are at war with us - whether we like it or not. At some point, boots on the ground WILL be necessary. If for no other reason then they decide to cross into Turkey, and our NATO obligations demand it. Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia... Lines are often drawn in the sand, to disappear when the wind changes
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 16:01:23 GMT -5
Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia... Lines are often drawn in the sand, to disappear when the wind changes Yeah... but for Muslims a grudge is forever. Just look at the Sunni-Shia split. Honestly, I really have to laugh at aboutwell's obsession with Reagan and the Gulf of Sidra. The US has had boots on the ground against Islamic terrorists since the President Jefferson and the First Barbary War in North Africa. I'm sure they haven't forgotten that sleight either. Since 1801. THAT'S how long we've been fighting Islamic militants. The world will never be at peace with Islam until it gives up Sharia. And that's just not going to happen.
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Post by Ravenchamp on Sept 18, 2014 16:02:50 GMT -5
diplomacy and lines drawn is political BS to please the general public, all words. these rug runners only understand explosions
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Post by rocketwolf on Sept 18, 2014 16:14:02 GMT -5
Lines are often drawn in the sand, to disappear when the wind changes Yeah... but for Muslims a grudge is forever. Just look at the Sunni-Shia split. Honestly, I really have to laugh at aboutwell's obsession with Reagan and the Gulf of Sidra. The US has had boots on the ground against Islamic terrorists since the President Jefferson and the First Barbary War in North Africa. I'm sure they haven't forgotten that sleight either. Since 1801. THAT'S how long we've been fighting Islamic militants. The world will never be at peace with Islam until it gives up Sharia. And that's just not going to happen. I noticed the Raygun BS, I figure he was paying his liberal dues quota.
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 17:24:47 GMT -5
Yeah... but for Muslims a grudge is forever. Just look at the Sunni-Shia split. Honestly, I really have to laugh at aboutwell's obsession with Reagan and the Gulf of Sidra. The US has had boots on the ground against Islamic terrorists since the President Jefferson and the First Barbary War in North Africa. I'm sure they haven't forgotten that sleight either. Since 1801. THAT'S how long we've been fighting Islamic militants. The world will never be at peace with Islam until it gives up Sharia. And that's just not going to happen. I noticed the Raygun BS, I figure he was paying his liberal dues quota. They seem to have some really STEEP dues. It is obviously like joining a fraternity... they make you do things like wear a beanie, and a pin, dress up in a sheet and call it a toga, and then get on a message board to try to convince people that if we leave ISIS alone, they won't ever bother us. And that Ronald Reagan is the guy who got their attention.
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Post by rocketwolf on Sept 18, 2014 17:35:20 GMT -5
Crap they are still pissed about the crusades, and will be for the next 1200 years and beyond.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 18:13:14 GMT -5
Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia... Reagan isn't even a blip on the Islamists radar. I understand your hyper-partisanship requires you to post this nonsense, but it just isn't true. No more than it is for Carter, or Truman who supported the creation of Israel, or FDR before him (the Islamists were Axis powers during WWII). These people are at perpetual war with everything not part of their particular version of Islam. Boots on the ground or not, there will be more dead Americans. As I said above, the only question is whether or not they'll be armed, trained, and able to defend themselves, or innocent, unarmed civilians. Not now... he's a piece of rotting flesh that they continue to hate... And these people will continue to be at perpetual war with those same folks for generations to come... and will (and would have) leave us alone if we'd leave them alone... something Ronnie Raygun just couldn't, and didn't, do...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 18:16:16 GMT -5
Is that anything like "Biblical days"... a time I have said numerous times over many years that these people have been fighting ... each other... (2 tribes vs 10 tribes)... but not necessarily against us... till Ronnie Raygun stuck his nose in their faces... "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia... Lines are often drawn in the sand, to disappear when the wind changes Did I mention sand?...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 18:19:44 GMT -5
Lines are often drawn in the sand, to disappear when the wind changes Yeah... but for Muslims a grudge is forever. Just look at the Sunni-Shia split. Honestly, I really have to laugh at aboutwell's obsession with Reagan and the Gulf of Sidra. The US has had boots on the ground against Islamic terrorists since the President Jefferson and the First Barbary War in North Africa. I'm sure they haven't forgotten that sleight either. Since 1801. THAT'S how long we've been fighting Islamic militants. The world will never be at peace with Islam until it gives up Sharia. And that's just not going to happen. I agree with the "forever" part... same thing I said... but not the "obsession" part... I just know where it really got started for the U.S... I don't expect you to know or understand... you were a 4th grader at the time... I was in D.C...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 18:24:49 GMT -5
A couple of you guys are real hoots... been a long hard day here... thanks for the chuckle...
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 18:32:16 GMT -5
Yeah... but for Muslims a grudge is forever. Just look at the Sunni-Shia split. Honestly, I really have to laugh at aboutwell's obsession with Reagan and the Gulf of Sidra. The US has had boots on the ground against Islamic terrorists since the President Jefferson and the First Barbary War in North Africa. I'm sure they haven't forgotten that sleight either. Since 1801. THAT'S how long we've been fighting Islamic militants. The world will never be at peace with Islam until it gives up Sharia. And that's just not going to happen. I agree with the "forever" part... same thing I said... but not the "obsession" part... I just know where it really got started for the U.S... I don't expect you to know or understand... you were a 4th grader at the time... I was in D.C... Yeah. But you've proven over and over again that you believe a whole lot of really bizarre things. The idea that this "really got started for the US" because of Reagan is one of a slew of obviously wrong things you've posted here. It's OK though, being younger and healthier, I'm sure my memory of the 1980s is a lot better than yours.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 20:29:55 GMT -5
I agree with the "forever" part... same thing I said... but not the "obsession" part... I just know where it really got started for the U.S... I don't expect you to know or understand... you were a 4th grader at the time... I was in D.C... Yeah. But you've proven over and over again that you believe a whole lot of really bizarre things. The idea that this "really got started for the US" because of Reagan is one of a slew of obviously wrong things you've posted here. It's OK though, being younger and healthier, I'm sure my memory of the 1980s is a lot better than yours. You, nor anyone else have proven no such thing... and I can back up my memories of the 80's... you were still peeing in your britches at that time... I bet you can remember that... I can remember peeing in mine too... 20 years before that...
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 18, 2014 21:42:21 GMT -5
Yeah. But you've proven over and over again that you believe a whole lot of really bizarre things. The idea that this "really got started for the US" because of Reagan is one of a slew of obviously wrong things you've posted here. It's OK though, being younger and healthier, I'm sure my memory of the 1980s is a lot better than yours. You, nor anyone else have proven no such thing... and I can back up my memories of the 80's... you were still peeing in your britches at that time... I bet you can remember that... I can remember peeing in mine too... 20 years before that... Sure, ab. You think a couple of downed Libyan fighter planes is what the U.S. on the Islamist radar. 'Cause, you know Kaddaffi was so important to the Muslim cause.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 22:05:02 GMT -5
You, nor anyone else have proven no such thing... and I can back up my memories of the 80's... you were still peeing in your britches at that time... I bet you can remember that... I can remember peeing in mine too... 20 years before that... Sure, ab. You think a couple of downed Libyan fighter planes is what the U.S. on the Islamist radar. 'Cause, you know Kaddaffi was so important to the Muslim cause. I see you did a little reading... that's a start... good...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 18, 2014 22:51:29 GMT -5
Provocation...
US Navy Commander Thompson S. Sanders wrote in Air & Space that his S-3A Viking's mission was the real precursor to this incident. Sanders was ordered to fly his Viking in a racetrack orbit inside Qaddafi's claimed zone but outside the internationally recognized 12 mile territorial water limit to try to provoke the Libyans to react.
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Post by cyclegeek on Sept 19, 2014 5:17:54 GMT -5
We were basically leaving them alone... and they were making isolated attacks against each other here and there... till the trigger happy Ronald Raygun came along and just had to play war games in the Gulf of Sidra... and riled up the whole damn bunch of 'em over there... and they've wanted to kill us ever since... Heck... even Iran during the Carter years only wanted to kill the Shah... and didn't want us to let him seek treatment here in the U.S... That really doesn't answer my questions. I don't really care about the history of how we got here. I care about what you think will happen moving forward, and how we should react if things don't go all sunshine and roses. Crickets?!
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Post by Ranger John on Sept 19, 2014 6:13:41 GMT -5
Sure, ab. You think a couple of downed Libyan fighter planes is what the U.S. on the Islamist radar. 'Cause, you know Kaddaffi was so important to the Muslim cause. I see you did a little reading... that's a start... good... I actually do remember this incident. It was brought on when Kaddaffi declared, all on his own, that the Gulf of Sidra was entirely inside Libya. The only place US action was controversial was inside Kaddaffi's egomaniacal mind. There, and inside the minds of people who think and act like him... Like Democrats. In any event, the idea that this incident somehow brought the U.S. to the attention of Islamic radicals, after decades of our supporting Israel, is utterly ludicrous. One of the MANY bizarre things you believe.
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 19, 2014 6:30:08 GMT -5
I see you did a little reading... that's a start... good... I actually do remember this incident. It was brought on when Kaddaffi declared, all on his own, that the Gulf of Sidra was entirely inside Libya. The only place US action was controversial was inside Kaddaffi's egomaniacal mind. There, and inside the minds of people who think and act like him... Like Democrats. In any event, the idea that this incident somehow brought the U.S. to the attention of Islamic radicals, after decades of our supporting Israel, is utterly ludicrous. One of the MANY bizarre things you believe. I'm sure you do...
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Post by aboutwell on Sept 19, 2014 6:35:33 GMT -5
That really doesn't answer my questions. I don't really care about the history of how we got here. I care about what you think will happen moving forward, and how we should react if things don't go all sunshine and roses. Crickets?! The crickets said: "Boots on the ground" will only result in more dead Americans... and they'll still be there fighting among themselves when we leave... were we to do anything, we aught to draw a line and bomb the hell out of them when they cross it... like Clinton did to Ole Slobo in Yugoslavia...------------------------------------------ Kinda like the French did... www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/19/french-airstrike-isil/15873653/
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